Terry Dresbach

Outlander Costume Designer

The Big "O" Part Deux: Giving VS. Receiving

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  • #7747
    AllisonL
    Participant

    So, I was listening to Ron’s podcast of E11 and got to the scene in camp when Jamie manually gives Claire the orgasm. I was rather stunned to hear that Ron wanted to cut out that scene because the men on the production staff insisted that it was not realistic—that a man would NEVER do that for a woman without expecting something in return. The writer, a woman, had to fight to keep the scene in, and fortunately Ron listened to reason. But it started me thinking about the way men take their own pleasure for granted and the idea of giving pleasure without it is unfathomable. So I’m throwing this out there, what did you think of that scene?

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    • #7749
      Photomom
      Participant

      I love the scene and in my 40 odd years of dealing with men I have not found one who gives without expecting something in return, or expects without a thought of giving back. That would be a rare find indeed!

      • This reply was modified 7 years, 1 month ago by Photomom.
    • #7751
      AllisonL
      Participant

      Photomom, me too! I’m in my late 40s, married for 12 years, and before my husband I can count on one finger the number of boyfriends/lovers who would “do for me” without expecting anything in return. I’m lucky that my husband will do it occasionally. But here’s another thing: I think a lot of women feel guilty if they allow themselves to have an orgasm and the man not have one, like they don’t have a right to be pleasured with no strings attached. And so many women will give a man a bj with no thought whatsoever that they will get anything in return. What is so interesting about that scene in E11 is that Jamie is doing it for so many emotional reasons–to pleasure her, and to watch and remember. It brought back the line from earlier in the book when he says, and I’m paraphrasing, that it’s wonder and a joy that he can make her body rouse to his. I was thinking about that line as I watched the scene, that it was such a bittersweet joy for him at that moment as he gave her pleasure.

      • #7759
        Photomom
        Participant

        I would feel a bit guilty if my husband did not find his pleasure as well. Did you also notice that Frank did the same as Jamie in the first episode when they were in the ruins of the surgery? What is it in Claire, do you think, that inspires men to be so selfless?

    • #7752
      clara
      Participant

      I loved that scene. I think of it as a gift to the fans. Anyone who has read book 2 knows that Jamie was ready and willing to do this for Claire during the early stages of her pregnancy. I love watching this show having read all of the books. I can’t complain about a thing. I do stay away from the social media as all the complaining, analyzing and bickering tends to cheapen it for me. I was quite happy in the beginning when it appeared to be a cult hit. It felt special. But I am happy the show is so successful. Everyone associated with the production has done a brilliant job. What I would give to spend a day in Terry’s workshop!

      • #7758
        Photomom
        Participant

        Clara, I agree the social media disgusts me and I am by no means a prude. In the beginning I felt protective of Sam and Cat and I still do, I do not want to see them become another victim of social media gone horribly wrong. This may sound hokey but I pray for them both that they and their family would be protected from the malicious gossip and criticism. They are giving so much of themselves for our enjoyment and we are giving our thanks in mean and inappropriate ways.

        I love the show, I love how the writers interpret the soul deep relationship between Claire and Jamie taking great pains to make sure it isn’t raunchy. I think many women, including myself wish their husbands had a little bit of Jamie in them.

        I love talking about Outlander and I hope I have found a place where I can discuss the books and series with out worrying that contributors will disrespect the actors, producers, writers and Diana.

    • #7757
      Photomom
      Participant

      I agree that it is a gift that Sam is giving Claire and also himself, to embed in his mind and her heart one of the elements of the magic between them. Also, Sam might not want to chance her going to Frank with his child growing inside her.

      • #7760
        AllisonL
        Participant

        I’m not on social media to speak of, and I have been horrified to hear the stories of what Sam and Cait (but especially Sam) have had to endure over the last few months. In a couple of recent interviews he’s mentioned how he was sleeping on a plane and woke up startled to see a fan bending over him IN HIS FACE. I cannot imagine anyone being that insensitive, but they’re out there. It appears that Sam has become so much more guarded and wary than he was in the beginning–if you watch some early interviews he’s so wide-eyed and excited and open, but not so much now. I know it’s a survival mechanism for him, but it’s sad.

        I didn’t think of the idea that Jamie might not want Claire to be carrying his child when she goes back to Frank. I just saw it as a very tender loving moment. But it bugs me that men are thought of as “selfless” (good point Photomom) when they give an orgasm but don’t receive one, but women are not. It’s all part of the whole idea that men should be praised and respected for things women do every day–housework, child care, orgasms. 🙂

    • #7762
      jackie
      Participant

      Remember when Claire went down on Jamie in The Wedding? And that pleased look on her face? Been there, done that. It is so much fun to be in charge and make love to the other person and not worry about having your own orgasm immediately. It’s kind of a power trip (in a good way.) I have had a (male) lover do the same for me several times. It was pretty cool. The guys in the writers’ room are not very sophisticated lovers are they? (lol)

      • This reply was modified 7 years, 1 month ago by jackie.
      • #7765
        maureenanne
        Participant

        Good point about the not wanting to get Claire pregnant before sending her back through the stones….sharp contrast to book 2 when he rogers her good before shoving her toward the stones and she does get pregnant. I am sure if I thought about it I could remember times when my husband just wanted to take care of me because I was stressed, not enough time for him, trying to get me to go into labor…but for me it’s a turn on that he is turned on by making me happy so we usually always have sex afterwards. Seems like a silly reason to cut the scene. It’s very erotic and who knows what was going to happen afterwards….

      • #7768
        Photomom
        Participant

        Maureen, I believe Claire was already pregnant before going through the stones to Frank. Jamie didn’t believe he was going to survive Culloden and with all her problems with the last pregnancy he didn’t want to leave her a widow without the proper medical care.

      • #7767
        Photomom
        Participant

        Do you think part if it is that women are wired to give pleasure and men aren’t taught about a womans’ pleasure?
        Also, if you remember in the first episode, Frank (with a little firm pressure from Claire) did almost the same as Jamie. Is it something about Claire that inspires selflessness or is it that she is a strong woman and that influences the men in her life?

    • #7769
      Photomom
      Participant

      So here’s another question I have been pondering, what do you think Jamie was feeling and thinking when he made Claire go back to Frank knowing she was carrying his child and knowing another man (his rival) was going to raise her?

      On the other side, what motivated Frank to want Claire back and even more what made him want to raise and love another mans child as his own. I have some thoughts on it but I would like to know what other people’s might be.

    • #7786
      Katie (@bunnums)
      Participant

      Fantastic scene! One of the sexiest, most sensual scenes I’ve watched. The thing is, it’s not about sex or orgasms. Not really. It’s about a heartbroken Jamie saying good-bye to the love of his life, who doesn’t know he’s saying good-bye. He’s trying to memorize every single aspect of her, every expression, every moment.

      That scene is about emotion, not sex. As all great sex scenes are.

    • #7787
      gamblin
      Participant

      I posted this in another forum discussing the epsiode, but it seems that it fits very well here too.

      After watching the episode I have so much going on in my mind. It is a really loaded episode and it took a few days (and viewings) to get myself focused on why. I listened to podcasts and read reviews and recaps. Virtually without fail everyone recognizes the sex scene by the campfire as incredibly romantic and “hot”. And it is. Alastair commented on how the significance of the scene (as a means for Jamie to create a memory of Claire in that moment) is only apparent in retrospect. And that is true as well.
      However, it is so much more than that. If we forget that as book readers we know what is going to happen the next morning, there is still a very powerful message being delivered.
      This scene showed a real intimacy that simple intercourse would not have been able to. Claire is in a completely vulnerable position here. Not only has she bared her secrets to him, but now she is baring her body and soul to him. This is not about asserting or revelling in her sexuality. It is about establishing an intimacy that is based on a whole truth and an openness that did not previously exist. Sexuality has been a man’s domain. And being a sexual person isn’t just about asking for what you want (as in the scene with Frank in 1940’s Leoch), it is also about trusting your partner enough so that you can be entirely vulnerable and know that they will be accepting. The moment when Claire says she wants Jamie inside her is one that most adult women can identify with, and the request can be meant in many ways. A woman can simply want to feel her partner inside her, she can want to move to the next step in the proceedings (or just get things over with), or she can need or want to have all the focus and attention removed from herself by sharing that intimacy with her partner.
      So, when Jamie denies Claire that, she is compelled to trust him completely. This is evident in the eye contact they maintain as she achieves orgasm. Really, at what moment are you more vulnerable than that?
      Again, even though we as book readers know that he has made the decision to send her back to her time, and that this is one last moment of love between them, for Jamie is it also more. He is in turn giving himself to her. He only wants to serve her, to give her pleasure, and to not have that moment clouded by his own gratification.
      Now, we know he is making memories in this scene. We know that he is saying his goodbye. We know that he fully expects to have her gone from his life the next day. Knowing all this only magnifies the depth of his love for her. To deny himself her loving touch in return, to have his desire as a memory as well is also a vulnerability he shares with an unknowing Claire. What can be seen as superficially a strength (his denial of sexual release) is also a real vulnerability in that he is showing he the depth of his love for her. For him to give so much by the simple act of not taking speaks volumes.

      • #7789
        maureenanne
        Participant

        I enjoyed your post gamblin and it prompted me to re-read the passages leading up to the stones. I think this is an example of where the adaptation from the novel to the TV version really added to our understanding and love for the characters.

      • #7792
        gamblin
        Participant

        Thanks so much. I agree. So much is brought out of the story by all the people working on the show.

      • #7794
        Photomom
        Participant

        Gamblin, great response! It is true that Claire trusted Jamie so much in that moment so vulnerability. Great insight on their relationship.

    • #7791
      AllisonL
      Participant

      Wonderful insight, gamblin. As I read it, it made me realize that that scene is really the first time in the series where there is true intimacy between Jamie and Claire during sex. All the other sex we’ve seen has been awkward, hungry, or rough, for completely appropriate reasons in their relationship arc. But intimacy? You might argue the going down scene in a previous episode was intimate (and hey, another example of Jamie giving without receiving! Damn that ginger Scot and his sexual consideration!) And it’s the first time in the show that Jamie has allowed his love for Claire to really come through. It’s the moment, I think, when he comes closest to acknowledging that he truly loves her, at the moment he is about to lose her. I agree with maureenanne, this one scene added so much depth to both characters that wasn’t in the book.

      • #7793
        gamblin
        Participant

        Thank you. You are right. There is, for the first time a real intimacy between them based on honesty. And yes, Damn that sexually considerate ginger Scot!

        I am loving what the show is doing with the story. In written form Claire’s POV can be so limiting, but we can see every little nuance that book Claire might miss. Bravo to all involved.

      • #7795
        Photomom
        Participant

        Love the “damn that sexually considerate Scot” great line

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