Terry Dresbach

Outlander Costume Designer

OUTLANDER ISSUES ****SPOILER ALERT****

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  • #2844
    Terry Dresbach
    Keymaster

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/29/outlander-wedding_n_5896284.html?ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000024

    Maureen Ryan wrote a terrific piece about how Outlander portrays sexuality. A discussion about this on twitter, led to a very interesting conversation about sexuality, rape, and how all that is handled by the show. Obviously it was impossible to have the discussion (for those of us who know the books), and avoid the controversial upcoming scenes. So, I thought it would be good to have a place to talk about it.

    Please know this is going to have spoilers flying all over the place. I have made another topic to discuss the same issues, that is spoiler free.

    So what do you think of these issues and how they have been handled, and how they should be handled going forward?

Viewing 302 reply threads
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    • #2850
      sunsetmoon
      Participant

      I think the sexuality has been portrayed beautifully. Claire is a strong female that knows what she wants and isn’t embarrassed to ask for it. Not so much by her words but her actions. There is much beauty in sexual desires no matter what gender is experiencing those feelings. Man with Man Man with Woman. I feel that following those scenes coming up should be handled with the respect that herself wrote it. Yes it was brutal and demented but the feeling of BJR was still coming from a place of love. This was his way of loving, right or wrong sadistic or not this was his way. Be truthful in showing that. I will be cringing just as I did during the flogging scene but will still come from the place of understanding how important that is to the story. Jamie was no longer just a tough guy I saw him as a vulnerable human being that needed Claire’s strong personality and love to carry him thru. It’s a great thing to see these two people save each other .

    • #2853
      Terry Dresbach
      Keymaster

      Do you think BJR is expressing love? Interesting. I have heard that said.

      • #3413
        laplane
        Participant

        bjr’s actions come from a place of need. since need can be part of love, perhaps that’s what sunsetmoon means. but by common understanding love includes caring and warm feelings towards the object being loved. that’s where bjr’s outlook departs from any relationship to love as we know it; he needs to hurt his love object in order to feel satisfaction.

    • #2854
      FranS
      Participant

      A psychopath is unable to feel empathy for others. BJR’s actions came from his disordered mind and not a place of love. He had a pathological fixation on Jamie and it was fueled by his twisted desires for power and control and his need for the infliction of pain upon another to achieve sexual release for himself. In my opinion, love had nothing to do with it.

      • #2892
        Terry Dresbach
        Keymaster

        I think Jack is a psychopath. I think he tortures and inflicts pain in an attempt to feel something.

      • #3450
        Gael
        Participant

        Yes, BJR is a psychopath and he is attempting to completely defile another human being. He is very different from Jamie. When Jamie tries to physically and psychologically dominate Claire, he realizes he has to lose himself, also. They are apart of each other. (I found this scene more disturbing than the beating, but finally reconciled myself that Jamie actually understands neither partner can subsume the other. That is love.) BJR is attempting to abnegate Jamie’s identity. His wanting Jamie to tell him he loves him because such a declaration would completely defeat and destroy him. Did anyone else have trouble with the scene between Jamie and Clair?

        • This reply was modified 7 years, 7 months ago by Gael.
      • #3496
        barbc624
        Participant

        In the Castle Leoch scene there is a battle going on – Jamie doesn’t want a half hearted marriage yet he has known from the beginning that Frank is an ever present third party in his. He has been understanding of Claire’s grief over Frank. But, he doesn’t yet know that Frank is not really dead and Claire has the potential of returning to him. As he would see it, she is holding back from completely committing to him because of a dead man. Yet at the same time she throws a jealous fit over him and Laoghaire. Talk about mixed signals. So Jamie gives her a choice – does she want to make this a real marriage? Unsaid is the question “Will you let go of Frank and embrace me or not?” If not, he will let her go. She accepts and takes the ring he has had made for her.

        Once she does so, he in effect asks her to consummate what is now to be a marriage in fact, not a marriage of convenience. He needs her to prove her choice of him in deeds not just words. She has after all already run away from him once after promising not to. Jamie does not force her to do so against her will. He asks her and for a second time she says “Yes”; as he is about to begin he warns her that he can’t be gentle and she nods again, her third yes. She does not say “No, let’s not do this now in that case.” She says yes three separate times.

        Once they begin, when Claire starts to resist Jamie doesn’t stop because he believes that he is in a battle for Claire’s soul. He must break down her walls and get her to commit, not only in words but in deeds, if they are to be truly married. He expresses it as being her Master because that is the frame in which marriage is defined in his time and place. Claire resists him and voices a protest, but she never actually tells him “No”. In her own mind she knows that she is not resisting sex with him – she is resisting the idea of surrendering her soul to him.

        It seemed clear to me from the beginning that she had never done so to Frank. Theirs was a somewhat emotionally distant marriage held together mostly by the physical connection of sex. Even though she loved Frank, Claire held something of herself back from him. This may speak to her loss of her parents at a young age and an unadmitted fear of ever giving herself completely to another, because people you love leave you and it hurts.

        In her marriage to Jamie she starts out protecting herself emotionally just as she did with Frank. Jamie however doesn’t want that and forces her to open up to him emotionally as well as physically, and in the end she gives as good as she gets. She becomes as rough with him as he is with her – perhaps she is finally expressing her anger at her parents for leaving her, which she has probably held in since her childhood. This leaves her able to now take the chance of opening herself to truly loving another.

        At the conclusion Jamie says to her “I am your Master… as you’re mine. Seems I canna possess your soul without losing my own.” This has been a mutual battle for dominance and it is one that neither of them has won. He understands that and is man enough to admit to it. Claire and Frank never had that – as she muses to herself “You’re too quick by half, lad…Frank never did find that out.”

        So that is how I see that scene and why I have never seen it as a rape. Claire is a very strong woman and if she didn’t in some part of her want Jamie to force her emotional surrender she would have stopped him. She wanted to commit to him but she needed him to help her break down her walls so she could do so.
        She also needed a man strong enough to accept her as an equal. And she needed a man who needed her. Needed her enough to prevent him from leaving her as her parents did. Frank wasn’t that man and Jamie was. He was equally damaged by his past experiences, and he needed Claire as much as (and IMO more than) she needed him.

        So that’s why I read this scene as the foundation of their love story and I didn’t have the problem with it that others seem to.

      • #3654
        Gael
        Participant

        Barb,
        Brilliant! I never saw the scene rape. What concerned me was the need to break her”open,” but your analysis is so cogent. I teach college literature and composition and I only wish my students could analyze a text like this. Many years ago, a good friend of mine related his attempt to physically triumph over a woman he could possess emotionally. He took for a bicycle ride and made her ride to beyond exhaustion. His story stayed with me. He is one of the kindest, gentlest man, but his frustration with her unavailability led him to behave out of character. You comment puts the scene in context of his quest to vanish Frank. He later says he would have rather faced Frank in a fight than in Claire’s mind. I never considered her abandonment issues iwth her parents. I think the television series is brilliant in its addition of more detail on her relationship with Frank. It did bother me that Claire proclaims her love, but we have no concrete evidence of why. Thank you for taking the time to discuss this.I look forward to seeing more of your comments.

      • #3659
        barbc624
        Participant

        Blame it on a double major in Psych and English many moons ago! LOL Truth is I never really sat and analyzed these scenes consciously when I read the books 20+ Years ago. It is only discussions like these that have forced me to articulate why I never had the problems with the strapping scene or this one.

        That’s kind of how my mind works. It can drive my husband crazy because he can never believes my answers to things until he sits down and works through them to come up with the same answer I did. My kids are the same way and their teachers would get mad at them when they were young because they hated to have to write out their reasoning when their answers were correct.

        I’m glad what I said made sense although others may see it in a different light. I just try to relate Jamie and Claire’s actions to what I observe in people I know.
        I could be way off base but that’s the fun in these discussions. They make you think and learn from others.

      • #3663
        barbc624
        Participant

        Gael,
        It just struck me what you said about not knowing the reason that Claire loves Frank and relating it to her abandonment issues. At least I think that is what you are saying.

        In the wedding night scene in the book Claire tells Jamie about her history up through Uncle Lamb. And then she says that she met Frank and doesn’t want to go any further.
        Jamie doesn’t push her sensing this is dangerous ground for her.

        So maybe when she met Frank she was at a point where Uncle Lamb was pushing her out of the nest and Frank was a safe choice. He wouldn’t ask more of her emotionally than she was prepared to give. She could love him without fear of devastation if something happened to him.

        Her fears after the wedding night reflect this. It is the emotional intimacy with Jamie that really frightens her not the physical pleasure. Jamie is not a safe choice, he will want all or nothing and she knows that already.

        Frank is her safety net. She does love him but it is a safe love in a safe time and place. She thinks she can have a safe conventional life with him (the vases) and she believes that is what will make her happy. Jamie is the risk that presents the opportunity for tremendous rewards or complete destruction.

        That is why her choice is so hard for her. She is by nature a risk taker but by circumstance consciously cautious about taking risks.

        And I’m stopping now before I get into Joseph Campbell and Karl Jung!! Archetypes and the Id an who knows what …

      • #3665
        rachely
        Participant

        Underutilized college degrees assemble! (I have three masters degrees! SO USELESS!)

        This answer makes me happy because it allows me to forgive myself for the fact that I nearly responded earlier this week with a post that involved a discussion of Max Weber’s Ideal Types of leadership. 🙂

      • #3666
        barbc624
        Participant

        LOL. Maybe you should have. I assume it was in reference to Jamie.

        I have to say that while Jamie does have one fine arse I’m enjoying a space where the discussion is about other things than that. (Not that I’m above enjoying the eye candy).

      • #3667
        rachely
        Participant

        In reference to Claire, actually! 🙂 Though I’ve drunk enough right now (the bottle was nearly empty; it seemed right that I just finish it!) that I’m not sure I could possibly recreate the ideas that stuck in my head earlier this week. I think it had something to do with Claire being 18 when she married Frank.

        Seriously, THREE MASTERS DEGREES…I do nothing but make pleats all day.

      • #3668
        barbc624
        Participant

        My bad. Assuming it was about the guy. “Hangs head in shame.

      • #3670
        rachely
        Participant

        YOU FAIL FEMINISM 101!

      • #3669
        barbc624
        Participant

        My bad. Assuming it was about the guy. “Hangs head in shame.

      • #3671
        rachely
        Participant

        YOU FAIL FEMINISM 101!

        ETA: why did that show up twice?

      • #3672
        laplane
        Participant

        <<<barbc624 wrote:

        Gael,
        It just struck me what you said about not knowing the reason that Claire loves
        Frank and relating it to her abandonment issues. At least I think that is what
        you are saying.

        In the wedding night scene in the book Claire tells Jamie about her history up
        through Uncle Lamb. And then she says that she met Frank and doesn’t want to go
        any further.
        Jamie doesn’t push her sensing this is dangerous ground for her.

        So maybe when she met Frank she was at a point where Uncle Lamb was pushing her
        out of the nest and Frank was a safe choice. He wouldn’t ask more of her
        emotionally than she was prepared to give. She could love him without fear of
        devastation if something happened to him.

        Her fears after the wedding night reflect this. It is the emotional intimacy
        with Jamie that really frightens her not the physical pleasure. Jamie is not a
        safe choice, he will want all or nothing and she knows that already.

        Frank is her safety net. She does love him but it is a safe love in a safe time
        and place. She thinks she can have a safe conventional life with him (the vases)
        and she believes that is what will make her happy. Jamie is the risk that
        presents the opportunity for tremendous rewards or complete destruction.

        That is why her choice is so hard for her. She is by nature a risk taker but by
        circumstance consciously cautious about taking risks.

        And I’m stopping now before I get into Joseph Campbell and Karl Jung!!
        Archetypes and the Id an who knows what …>>>

        barb, reading this post is worth another ceu unit! you posit a very interesting bundle of perspectives – about uncle lamb, jamie, claire, and frank. i see that quality of emotional safety pulling claire back to frank, partly because with frank what you see is what you get [even if there are dull moments] and partly because claire and frank are from the same familiar universe, whereas with jamie his very depth and probing of claire’s depths can be scary, albeit sexy as hell, and there are all those unknowns for claire in his unfamiliar universe.

      • #3766
        elizlk
        Participant

        So interesting – thanks for taking the time to dive in and share! I certainly never analyzed all this when I first read Outlander nearly 20 years ago, either. Makes me want to go back an re-read, again, with a book group, so I resist the page-turning aspect and dive in underneath.

      • #3783
        barbc624
        Participant

        Maybe we should do a formal book discussion thread for those who would like to retread and continue this during the hiatus. Seems like we’re kind of doing it anyway. 🙂

      • #7896
        kkilgrow
        Participant

        Barb, In reply to your formal book discussion post. I would truly appreciate your opinion of the character Jenny’s relationship with Claire throughout the book series. Jenny has been the one and only lady in charge of Lallybroch since her mother died. All her men have been the love of her life and no other woman’s, but hers only. Then Claire steps in to her brother’s life briefly and then out. Lallybroch is the Murray’s for her children to grow up and enjoy only because of the financial support of brother, Jamie. Without her brother generously giving his all, her home would not be there for her and hers. Claire returns and Jenny sends for Laoghaire to have these two have a face to face brawl. Claire and Jamie have to leave for many year, but still Jamie is always selflessly generous to the Murrays. Then Claire and Jamie’s child shows up on Lallybroch’s door step and it is Ian who suggest they should give Lallybroch to Bree. Being an Outlander reader, you know how the story goes with the Claire and Jenny until MOHB when Jenny gives an apology to Claire, but only for being ill mannered as Ian dies. Even though DG has not outwardly declared Jenny would rather not have another strong woman in her world of Lallybroch, I have always had a nagging feeling that Jenny’s Fraser / McKenzie blood is stubbornly and cunningly wishing to have Jamie to herself for her own means or is Jenny wanting Claire to make Jamie happy. As you can see, I am not as clever with words as you so forgive the rambling on with my thought process. I would respect your view on this dilemma. It could be something I have conjured up that does not exist.

      • #7897
        cainsworth
        Participant

        Hi kkilgrow,

        I’m not Barb, 😉 but I just happened to come across your post, saw it was very recent, and thought I would add my two cents. I agree that Jenny has pretty much been in charge all of her life, and therefore isn’t really sure how to take Claire’s presence. She’s definitely used to taking care of Jamie (and everyone else), and whenever someone has a very definite idea of what their role/purpose in life is— and it’s something they’ve been doing pretty much since they were a child— it’s hard when someone else comes in and upsets that world.

        But IMO, I’ve never thought that Jenny overtly wants to make things difficult for Claire and Jamie. At her core, I feel she adores Jamie and I believe all of the choices she makes concerning him center around her desire that he be happy. I think even her reaction toward Claire in Voyager has more to do with wanting to protect her brother than just trying to keep him to herself.

        I also got the impression from the first book that Jenny felt an underlying feeling of kinship with Claire on a certain level (and YES, that bond is definitely weakened/tested later, especially in Voyager and Echo). She is meeting a woman “on her level” (i.e., not one of her tenants or servants) who is as headstrong as she is, and that’s probably a new experience for her. 😉 I always appreciated the fact that instead of having the women remain at constant odds with each other in the first book, they eventually seemed to fill a void of sorts in each other’s lives (that of close friend). I’ve seen inklings of that same feeling in MOHB as well (although I admit I haven’t finished the book yet).

        I could be wrong (about ALL of this), but that’s my take on it. 🙂
        ~C

        • This reply was modified 7 years, 1 month ago by cainsworth.
      • #7906
        barbc624
        Participant

        There is actually a thread on Jenny on this board – I and others have commented on her there. She is not a character I like as I find her to be manipulative and selfish in many ways, although there are others who differ and have valid reasons for doing so.

        I do think that, even though Claire says they are friends in Outlander, that that is another instance of Claire as the unreliabe narrator. She wants to be friends with Jenny because she sees how close Jamie is to her and so she makes herself believe that Jenny feels the same about her. In Voyager she finds the truth of that when Jenny deliberately tries to make her leave in order to keep Jamie to herself.

        In fairness, Jenny is damaged, as is Jamie, by the early death of her mother, BJR’s assault on her and the resulting imprisonment of Jamie, and the death of their father, so she clings to Jamie as her last blood relative. I can understand her clinging to Jamie, but I can’t forgive her disregarding Jamie’s happiness at having Claire restored to him, especially given that she has had Ian and her children and Lallybroch for years while Jamie has been imprisoned, lost Lallybroch his home,lost the role in life he was brought up to fill, and has lost his wife (and children).

      • #7907
        cainsworth
        Participant

        Hi Barb,

        If it weren’t for what I’ve read so far in MOHB, I think I would be inclined to agree with the notion that Claire’s outlook about Jenny might have been unreliable in the first book. Again, I’m not very far into it yet, but so far in that book Jenny has been more than accommodating to Claire and very helpful in keeping her out of the hands of the British Army. I always interpreted Jenny’s wrath in Voyager with the fact that she had to witness six years of Jamie without Claire, and that it broke her heart to see him so miserable. Miserable to the point that he insisted on turning himself in (albeit to save the Murrays) with no thought to his own welfare. And the, on top of that misery, to all of a sudden realize that Claire actually wasn’t dead (and no true explanation given for her absence)— I think that would cause some serious trust issues. I can see her not really understanding how Claire could have just left Jamie knowing what it would do to him… as well as being highly suspicious that she might do it again. I have to admit that I might be a little bitter as well if I watched a loved one go through the heartbreak that Jenny witnessed from Jamie. 😉

        You make good points, though. 🙂 I think it will be interesting to see what happens later this season between Claire and Jenny.
        ~C

        • This reply was modified 7 years, 1 month ago by cainsworth.
      • #7909
        AllisonL
        Participant

        Yes, yes, yes—I think a big part of Jenny’s animosity toward Claire is the fact that she thinks Claire abandoned Jamie at the moment when he–and the family–needed her the most. All she knew (before Claire told her the truth) was that Claire “went to France” to have the baby and stayed gone for 20 years. From her perspective, that makes no sense. Why stay gone so long? France wasn’t that far away, she could have returned when things were safer. When you mix that in with the genuine friendship and love they felt for one another, I can see how Jenny’s bitterness and feeling of betrayal translated into a fierce, and ultimately harmful, sense of protection. I never saw Jenny’s actions toward Claire as deliberately malicious, but as her protecting Jamie from this person who caused him so much pain AND who could disappear again at any moment. It’s not really until Jamie and Claire tell Jenny and Ian everything that Jenny begins to let go of the bitterness. She may not believe Claire is from the future, but Jamie clearly does and she loves Jamie. Also, when she decided to leave Lallybroch with Jamie she understood that she’d be living with Claire for good and accepted that. I don’t think their relationship will ever be the same as it was in their 20s, but they’re allies now.

      • #7910
        cainsworth
        Participant

        I feel the same way, Allison…!

      • #7911
        barbc624
        Participant

        Hi cainsworth. I am actually going to reply on the jenny thread because this thread is acting wonky probably because it’s so large!

      • #4432
        michellibell
        Participant
          This is brilliant, and I’m embarrassed to admit as many times as I’ve read Outlander, I didn’t conclude this myself.

          Frank = safe, secure love
          Jamie = passionate, all-encompassing love

      • #3701
        aerokel
        Participant

        I just love your analysis. I think you’re spot on. But some people think that what makes it a matter of dubious consent is because Claire says “Stop.” (“Stop, Jamie, you’re hurting me,” I believe.) And Jamie doesn’t stop. I like and understand your perspective but I can also see how portraying a woman telling a man to stop, and him not complying, can be dangerous. (And not only does he not stop – she ends up liking it, and it becomes that epic union between Claire and Jamie. Possible message: Don’t stop if she says to, because she doesn’t really mean it, and you’ll end up blowing her mind.) This is also the problem with the way Jaime and Cersei’s scene in Game of Thrones was filmed; she protested but he continued. Just wondering what your thoughts are on that perception of the Leoch scene.

      • #3705
        laplane
        Participant

        <<<aerokel wrote:

        I just love your analysis. I think you’re spot on. But some people think that what makes it a matter of dubious consent is because Claire says “Stop.” (“Stop, Jamie, you’re hurting me,” I believe.) And Jamie doesn’t stop. I like and understand your perspective but I can also see how portraying a woman telling a man to stop, and him not complying, can be dangerous. (And not only does he not stop – she ends up liking it, and it becomes that epic union between Claire and Jamie. Possible message: Don’t stop if she says to, because she doesn’t really mean it, and you’ll end up blowing her mind.) This is also the problem with the way Jaime and Cersei’s scene in Game of Thrones was filmed; she protested but he continued. Just wondering what your thoughts are on that perception of the Leoch scene.>>>

        aerokel, i believe that what claire says is not “you’re hurting me” but “you’re crushing me” and that jamie then immediately places his weight on his own arms rather than on claire’s body. so, in fact, this scene demonstrates the opposite of rape in that claire’s feelings are immediately responded to by jamie. that said, i too feel that there are many shadings to what constitutes rape, and that to limit the concept to forced intercourse is to miss the effect on victims of other acts of force short of intercourse.

      • #3758
        barbc624
        Participant

        4 things:
        Jamie told her he would be rough and she let him proceed anyway.

        They have had rough sex before, initiated by Claire.

        She says “Stop”at the same time she is pulling him closer to her and responding physically.

        She doesn’t attempt to fight him. We have seen in the beating scene that she had no compunction in fighting back.

        Some may say that she told us that he was too strong and she couldn’t fight back. But…Claire is not always a reliable narrator so I take that with a grain of salt.
        Especially when it comes to her feelings about Frank she isn’t always completely honest.

        But that is my perception. Others may very well see it differently and have equally valid reasons for doing do. We all bring our prejudices and attitudes to what we read/view that color how we see things and that can make for se great conversations.

        I thought the Game of Thrones scene was different in that Jaime was angry and taking that out on Cersei who did struggle with him. That scene was also changed from the book where it was clearly consensual.

      • #4207
        lizf22
        Participant

        Barb, I love your analysis and the depth it goes into understanding what was really happening in that scene. I understood it in the context of the story, but your conclusions just knit it all together for me.

      • #7895
        kkilgrow
        Participant

        Barb, Thank you for writing an excellent synopsis of the book’s version of “You are my Master”. You painted a wonderful picture of two people forming a foundation to build on for their future connection to each other. Your detailed insightfulness was what inspired me to respond to your post and say thank you. It has given me a fuller view of this scene in the book. I wished that “the powers to be” for the TV series would have read your explanation of DG words so the viewers would have a better understanding of Claire’s, Frank’s, and Jamie’s relationships. Even though the scene got an applause from the fans, it only showed strong female dominating sex without depth of the true meaning. If they had shot that scene with your “Jamie’s prospective” of what was happing to them emotionally at that time, it would have given the viewer of the TV series a fuller understanding of Claire’s and Jamie’s nature for future episodes instead of only their creative sexual prowess. Thanks

      • #7905
        barbc624
        Participant

        Awww… thank you. I loved back in the day when this board was full of wonderful discussions about the characters and their motivations. I can’t say my opinion about that scene is right – only DG can tell us what the character motivations were – but what I wrote is what made sense to me.

      • #3233
        @gracesmom48
        Participant

        I don’t think BJR is expressing love because he is so evil and twisted he is incapable except maybe for his brother and even that I’m not sure about. Hasn’t Diana left it open as far as what their relationship is really based on? I wish he didn’t exist except it wouldn’t be interesting to see Jamie and Claire sitting around their house paying bills and doing laundry…..game nights, etc. 🙂

      • #3416
        dalvarez
        Participant

        I was thinking about his love for his brother like you mentioned. In a part of that terrible scene, BJR is holding Jamie but calling him Alex. What does this mean about his relationship with his brother? I always wondered…

      • #4422
        BarbMac68
        Participant

        As far as BJR’s brother, do we know that is who he is talking about? There are three references to Alex; Jamie’s middle name, BJR’s brother Alex, and Alex the prisoner who killed himself and who’s bible Jamie carries. Has it ever been clearly explained who he is talking about? Maybe I missed that.

      • #4429
        barbc624
        Participant

        I don’t believe there Is an explicit answer in the books. I know I took Claire’s thoughts about Franks genealogy and her remembering about BJRs brother being named Alex as the answer.

        Since we never got inside BJRs head directly (shudders at the thought) I took it that that was what DG wanted us us to believe.

        • This reply was modified 7 years, 7 months ago by barbc624.
      • #3592
        laplane
        Participant

        barb, what a perfect analysis! as for the relationship between claire and frank, i believe claire was 18 when they first married [although she did look older in that early scene in episode 8], and that her needs for a relationship were light years apart from what they had become during the 6 subsequent years in which she and frank were separated by ww2. it wasn’t only the age difference by then [although age is a factor in change], but also their experiences during that period of separation. i think that both tried to find a way back to how things were between them when they first married, but that the door had by now been closed. i suspect that frank’s despair when claire disappeared had alot to do with a belief that she was still the claire he had first married; there had not been enough time for him to grasp that she was not.

    • #2855
      Katie (@bunnums)
      Participant

      It never occurred to me to think about Outlander as “revolutionary” in how it portrays female sexuality. Probably because it portrays female sexuality in such a real way that it just feels normal. Because it is. I think I’ve also been too blasé about noticing the lack of real female sexuality in media before now.

      As for BJR, my interpretation has always been that he feels obsession, but not love in any real way. He may *believe* it’s love, but that’s because he can’t actually feel real emotion like most people do. And when you combine his deep-seated need for manipulation/power with an object of his obsession, you get Wentworth.

      Katie

    • #2858
      Terry Dresbach
      Keymaster

      What I have always said that what I loved about Outlander was Claire. She was a strong, independent, intelligent heroine who possessed a very healthy sexuality, free of all the delicate, swooning, bs. And her husband, Jamie appreciates her independence and intelligence and treats her as an equal, once she tells him that she will never accept anything else, after the beating.
      I have always felt it was a most unusual view of a woman, sexuality, and a marriage.

      • #2915
        elizlk
        Participant

        Agree with you, Terry. I keep re-reading the books for many reasons, but I love the fact that Clair is someone I could be proud to be. She goes through challenges and deals with them as best she can. Not always with grace, but with courage and determination that the right thing be done. Reminds me of what I most admire in my mom.

      • #3196
        Shanaynay
        Participant

        I agree Terry…Claire is an icon. And it is important to frame sexuality in the time that she lived…the 1930s/40s…she is a woman way before her time (no pun intended) in terms of how comfortable she is in her skin and with that side of her. Certainly her carrying this confidence with her back into the 18th c. is a challenge to the perceived qualities of women then, but I love that she holds her ground…it is not even a question that she be submissive…she maintains her voice and her feistyness. LOVE that! It is likely that her uncle treated her as an equal and did not raise her to be a traditional lady that had helped shape her.
        What I love about Jamie is that he seems free to ask her questions…he trusts her “experience” and looks to her to help him mature in his own way sexually. This is the ultimate in respect, and ultimate gender bender for that time. What man would look at a woman beyond something to possess?
        Jamie struggles somewhat with what he is prescribed to be as a Scottish man, a laird, a husband whose wife is “supposed to be” but I truly believe that he respects Claire and wants to learn from her. He is open to being her partner and admits that she has a hold on him.

      • #3414
        @gracesmom48
        Participant

        I admire Claire in many ways and her relationship with Jamie is just one of them. It’s interesting to me that although she acknowledges very early on that he’s a beautiful looking man, his looks don’t seem to be high on the list of reasons she loves him. Many relationships (modern, real ones, I mean) are so often about….’he’s so good looking, he has a great job’,etc., shallow stuff. She loves him for who he is and he loves her for who she is. The fact that they are both gorgeous seems low on their list of reasons why they love each other. That’s why it’s real and why it lasts. And that strong, equal relationship fuels all the mmphmm and hubba hubba 🙂

    • #2862
      KatHoar
      Participant

      I heard Mrs. Gabaldon say that she was most curious about what it took to maintain a grand, passionate love throughout one’s life (i’m paraphrasing of course); her parents experienced this so, how did it work?

      And I think we all need to consider, as a culture, how we teach our children to regard sex vs. love in realistic terms. What does that translate into on a daily basis? Everyone says the words at their wedding service, but what do they really mean?

      As for BJR, I always got the impression he did love/obsess over the boy who owned the Bible Jaime had. What was his name? Alexander? In reading that scene, it felt like a psychotic episode where BJR knew it was Jaime who he wanted to break and dominate and subjugate, but had moments of flashback or whatever and thought he was with the boy. Which ps, Tobias is CREEPY. Creepcreepcreepy.

    • #2864
      Terry Dresbach
      Keymaster

      I am not sure it about what it takes, as much as what it is at the start.

    • #2865
      Terry Dresbach
      Keymaster

      I still can’t accept it as LOVE. Obsession, yes, but not love. But I do not believe that true love can be an unhealthy thing.

      • #2869
        KatHoar
        Participant

        (I apologize if this is a repeat question)
        Do you think the feeling of “love” is the same for everyone?

      • #2887
        Terry Dresbach
        Keymaster

        No, I suppose not. But I do believe in the concept of love, in the same way I might believe in kindness, or forgiveness, grace, friendship.States of being.
        Those “concepts” or parts of the human psychology have limits or boundaries.

        Rape cannot be an act of love. Friendship does not include betrayal. Etc.

        I guess I believe in true love. It has nothing to do with the fairytale ideal, but is a highly idealist view. Trust, empathy, kindness, friendship, respect, equality, dignity. Without those qua;ivies, i gues I don’t believe it is love.

    • #2866
      julieis
      Participant

      I remember a comment made by Ron that he was asked to make the fans happy. The fans are drunk beyond our wildest expectations!
      For a critic to write about Outlander, without reading the book, is like trying to describe to someone what an orange tastes like, that has never smelled or tasted one.
      I liked HALF of Maureen Ryan’s article, and I agree with her that the sexuality, and how it is portrayed in Outlander changing TV. Ron, you, and the team have done an outstanding job with multi-facets of carefully portraying the honest sexuality between Claire and Jamie. I totally related to the look on Claire’s face, like is that it Jamie? And of course it would be with a virgin! Memories… The love-making in three parts was brilliant, and spacing it out perfect. When it comes to art, I know it’s hard to sit back and revel in creating perfection, but you both have provided that for us fans!
      What is coming up with BJR is going to be VERY interesting, and VERY different from any TV experience to date. Men get fractured by war and violence. The absence of Love seems to cause war. The war causes violence, and a disproportionate need for any kind of love. I think most fortunate people who have not experienced it, or have been in a relationship with someone who has, have a lighter understanding that a man can behave just like this. My ex was a Viet Nam vet and let’s just say Herself got the horror of it all, just right. I’m sure the upcoming scenes will cause a huge wave of discussion, and that is good. Violence/Love happened, it happens now, and will continue.
      I look forward to seeing how this unfolds!

      • #2883
        Terry Dresbach
        Keymaster

        [quote quote=2866]I remember a comment made by Ron that he was asked to make the fans happy. The fans are drunk beyond our wildest expectations!
        For a critic to write about Outlander, without reading the book, is like trying to describe to someone what an orange tastes like, that has never smelled or tasted one.
        I liked HALF of Maureen Ryan’s article, and I agree with her that the sexuality, and how it is portrayed in Outlander changing TV. Ron, you, and the team have done an outstanding job with multi-facets of carefully portraying the honest sexuality between Claire and Jamie. I totally related to the look on Claire’s face, like is that it Jamie? And of course it would be with a virgin! Memories… The love-making in three parts was brilliant, and spacing it out perfect. When it comes to art, I know it’s hard to sit back and revel in creating perfection, but you both have provided that for us fans!
        What is coming up with BJR is going to be VERY interesting, and VERY different from any TV experience to date. Men get fractured by war and violence. The absence of Love seems to cause war. The war causes violence, and a disproportionate need for any kind of love. I think most fortunate people who have not experienced it, or have been in a relationship with someone who has, have a lighter understanding that a man can behave just like this. My ex was a Viet Nam vet and let’s just say Herself got the horror of it all, just right. I’m sure the upcoming scenes will cause a huge wave of discussion, and that is good. Violence/Love happened, it happens now, and will continue.
        I look forward to seeing how this unfolds!
        [/quote]

        How do you feel about the suggestion out there, that one rape being shown is okay, but any more than that is gratuitous? I am paraphrasing, of course.

      • #2912
        rachely
        Participant

        Aren’t they/we/DG just showing what life was LIKE for a woman. How much of these books revolve around the fact that no matter how strong Claire is she cannot protect herself. There are two quotes about this later on (paraphrasing here) once when Donner tells Claire that he knew she was from the future because ‘she wasn’t afraid enough of men’ and that she ‘should be more afraid’. And one when Ian brings those two girls he finds to a brothel and doesn’t want them in danger and the Madame says (again, paraphrasing) ‘they were born girls; they were born in danger’ (which, doesn’t Cercei say something very similar in GoT?).

        Having been raped I can’t say I feel like things have changed a whole lot, except that my dad didn’t go out and kill my rapist to avenge me and my maidenhead… which leads me to the fact that of all the rapes it is Claire’s in BoSaA that I found the most horrifying because it was so common and so ordinary. She wasn’t facing a sociopath/sexual sadist/whatever BJR is, they were just MEN, ordinary men.

        Sorry, this is a little all over the place.

        [And since it is all over the place I would like to put it out there that I’m going to be really annoyed if Claire doesn’t get armpit hair (she didn’t in the Wedding episode. she clearly had a good waxing in the future) and if there’s full-frontal she has normal public hair. Not what I saw someone refer to as the “King’s Landing Strip” in reference to the women in GoT having well groomed privates.]

        • This reply was modified 7 years, 8 months ago by rachely.
      • #3189
        awabbit
        Participant

        Rachely,
        The actors must wear modesty/privacy patches. (Look these up on line)
        I was enlightened as well!
        Anne in NoHo

      • #3021
        julieis
        Participant

        Since the episodes have to cover a lot, we know Claire has to go through a lot, in a short amount of time. I think to tell the story, the rapes happen, and are not gratuitous. The way the story/episodes are managed, I don’t feel like our emotions are being played with, or that sex is being over utilized. We are experiencing the story, plus more, which is great to watch.
        Love that the episodes do not follow the story exactly! Keeps it even more interesting!
        It takes courage to express creativity.

        The fans understand, the critics have their opinions/suggestions.

    • #2867
      KatHoar
      Participant

      Her review is spot on. VERY refreshing to see this content handled with such clarity and truth. It could have been ridiculous, gratuitous, tawdry, like so many others….the film equivalent of a harlequin novel. Im not wanting to blow sunshine, but the whole series thus far has been magnificent.
      Probably helps that the chemistry between Sam & Cait really, really works.

    • #2868
      KatHoar
      Participant

      Do you think “love” is experienced the same way by all people?

    • #2871
      Terry Dresbach
      Keymaster

      Sorry all, I cannot access this topic!!

    • #2872
      Terry Dresbach
      Keymaster

      I can see the first 3 posts and reply to them, nothing more. Carry on without me!

    • #2878
      Terry Dresbach
      Keymaster

      Now that I am in the FRAKKING topic, I can only see three replies. Sigh. Going to Etsy to work…

      • #3020
        inneryarnzen
        Participant

        Going to Etsy to work…

        We never see Terry surface again! etsy is a time suck even with my shop selling there

    • #2879
      filmfixation
      Participant

      Thank you Terry for bringing this discussion to this forum! I agree with the predominant consensus regarding the depiction of sex in the Wedding Episode-a particularly good example of a creative team (from actors, writers, director, costume (!), art dept, editors camera) achieving a vision. The vision of a man and a woman discovering each other, and if we want to discuss the balance of power in this particular episode, it seems fair to suggest that whatever dominance there is in the bedroom, it sits firmly with Claire. (Herself plays with this bedroom dominance in further chapters!!) For while she is being forced into a marriage that is a direct result of the insidious and all encompassing patriarchy that rules sway in 18th century, she comes to that wedding bed a woman confident in her ability to feel, give and embrace desire. Teh framing, editing and a thousand other formal choices communicated Claire’s power to us, the viewers. As Terry so wonderfully put it with regard to a slightly different topic, ” I hope women get that, not just what his ass looks like.” I could go on and on about the wedding episode, it has stayed with me like no other piece of television (if we can even call it that!) has.

      What really struck me about the mid-season finale was the depiction of the “almost rape”-while I suppose one could argue there were two. Im more interested in the scene with the redcoats. There were some interesting formal choices made there that, I feel, did a fine job of depicting sexual assault from a feminist/female gaze. What did other’s think of the depiction? More largely, what does it mean to visually depict rape? How can one do this without perpetuating violence on the female viewer, or it that the point?

      • #2880
        filmfixation
        Participant

        Ugh, I just re-read this and am bemoaning my typos. Excuse me Outlanders, you deserve better!!

    • #2884
      filmfixation
      Participant
      • #2921
        ValhallaLilly
        Participant

        Honestly I’m too lazy to read that article but what I thought when I saw the title was really? Doesn’t GOT have like 8 million rapes? (which again too lazy to read that but it just seems that GOT seems to get a lot of acclaim and to complain about outlander I was like ?)

    • #2889
      filmfixation
      Participant

      somewhat related, although entirely BOOK based: http://talkinreckless.com/2010/02/03/romancing-rape-culture/

      I wonder very much if she continued to read the books.

    • #2890
      seddi
      Participant

      Terry, I hope you can read this discussion again! As for BJR, he is not a psychopath, he is a (sexual) sadist. He is very firmly rooted in reality. He might be a sociopath, but seems to have emotions, so I am not sure about that. He is a very interesting character. Is he in love with his victims? I think in his mind and on his terms – yes – an obsessive type of love. It is a type of love most of us cannot understand so we cannot call it love.

      It is so heartening that a sincere and honest adaptation of this series of books is being undertaken, I don’t understand some of the criticisms I have seen. I suspect I am not fan”atic” enough! Thank you for all your incredible work, and the work of everyone else on the series.

    • #2891
      Terry Dresbach
      Keymaster

      [quote quote=2879]Thank you Terry for bringing this discussion to this forum! I agree with the predominant consensus regarding the depiction of sex in the Wedding Episode-a particularly good example of a creative team (from actors, writers, director, costume (!), art dept, editors camera) achieving a vision. The vision of a man and a woman discovering each other, and if we want to discuss the balance of power in this particular episode, it seems fair to suggest that whatever dominance there is in the bedroom, it sits firmly with Claire. (Herself plays with this bedroom dominance in further chapters!!) For while she is being forced into a marriage that is a direct result of the insidious and all encompassing patriarchy that rules sway in 18th century, she comes to that wedding bed a woman confident in her ability to feel, give and embrace desire. Teh framing, editing and a thousand other formal choices communicated Claire’s power to us, the viewers. As Terry so wonderfully put it with regard to a slightly different topic, ” I hope women get that, not just what his ass looks like.” I could go on and on about the wedding episode, it has stayed with me like no other piece of television (if we can even call it that!) has.

      What really struck me about the mid-season finale was the depiction of the “almost rape”-while I suppose one could argue there were two. Im more interested in the scene with the redcoats. There were some interesting formal choices made there that, I feel, did a fine job of depicting sexual assault from a feminist/female gaze. What did other’s think of the depiction? More largely, what does it mean to visually depict rape? How can one do this without perpetuating violence on the female viewer, or it that the point?

      [/quote]
      And in there lies the upcoming issue that is going to hit this show like a Tsunami. How does one depict violence against women? Does context matter? Are there perimeters, boundaries? Where are they? Who sets them? I think we are heeding into very unchartered waters.

    • #2893
      filmfixation
      Participant

      For some reason I cant see any posts below mine, but I have been able to see posts via email…

      Regarding the topic of depicting violence against women visually…yes, its a biggie-a HUGE challenge for this show. This very “issue” came to a head for a show that is often (wrongly I think) put in the same category as Outlander: Game of Thrones.

      http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/03/arts/television/for-game-of-thrones-rising-unease-over-rapes-recurring-role.html?_r=0

      And herein lies the central conflict for both shows, stated here by George RR Martin: “Rape and sexual violence have been a part of every war ever fought, from the ancient Sumerians to our present day…To omit them from a narrative centered on war and power would have been fundamentally false and dishonest,” he continued, “and would have undermined one of the themes of the books: that the true horrors of human history derive not from orcs and Dark Lords, but from ourselves.”

      Here is the thing: the issue is not whether or not to include it at all. Rape is a reality of war, peacetime, both 200 years ago and today. To ignore it, or refuse to grapple with it in a narrative is simply irresponsible.

      The issue is how we do this. There are so many choices to be made, especially in the visual realm. For while prose can certainly pack a punch-imagery is the current language we all speak. Imagery doesn’t just flash across our screens anymore, ephemeral and fleeting. It stays with us in screen captures, memes, gifs and all sorts of forms.

      Because of this, the visual handling of rape is the issue, not the sheer existence of the content.

      Before I continue-Can folks see this post? I can’t so I just wanted to check!

      • #2895
        Mandy Tidwell
        Keymaster

        We’re tweaking our caching settings, so hopefully the speed at which replies appear will improve soon.

    • #2902
      tiggeros
      Participant

      How to phrase this? I’m pretty sure that the events in Wentworth, however they are portrayed are going to create a storm – the subject matter is just so different to what “mainstream” television would habitually show, and indeed I have vague memories of other shows (probably soap operas??) where male rape has been a storyline, but which has never visually been acknowledged. To paraphrasing DG/Jamie “knowing is far different from seeing” and I’m intrigued as to how these scenes will be shown…
      I’m personally most interested in when Jamie tells Claire about it – will that be in the show? How are they going to deal with that? How are they going to film when Claire “brings Jamie back”? *flashes of horrible war style pstd flashbacks* (please don’t do that ;-)) How do you portray on film that particular journey, and to what extent is the recovery harder to watch than the trauma?
      Don’t know if I’ve made myself clear, but I hope so!

    • #2907
      Terry Dresbach
      Keymaster

      [quote quote=2893]For some reason I cant see any posts below mine, but I have been able to see posts via email…

      Regarding the topic of depicting violence against women visually…yes, its a biggie-a HUGE challenge for this show. This very “issue” came to a head for a show that is often (wrongly I think) put in the same category as Outlander: Game of Thrones.

      http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/03/arts/television/for-game-of-thrones-rising-unease-over-rapes-recurring-role.html?_r=0

      And herein lies the central conflict for both shows, stated here by George RR Martin: “Rape and sexual violence have been a part of every war ever fought, from the ancient Sumerians to our present day…To omit them from a narrative centered on war and power would have been fundamentally false and dishonest,” he continued, “and would have undermined one of the themes of the books: that the true horrors of human history derive not from orcs and Dark Lords, but from ourselves.”

      Here is the thing: the issue is not whether or not to include it at all. Rape is a reality of war, peacetime, both 200 years ago and today. To ignore it, or refuse to grapple with it in a narrative is simply irresponsible.

      The issue is how we do this. There are so many choices to be made, especially in the visual realm. For while prose can certainly pack a punch-imagery is the current language we all speak. Imagery doesn’t just flash across our screens anymore, ephemeral and fleeting. It stays with us in screen captures, memes, gifs and all sorts of forms.

      Because of this, the visual handling of rape is the issue, not the sheer existence of the content.

      Before I continue-Can folks see this post? I can’t so I just wanted to check!
      [/quote]

      I ABSOLUTELY agree with Martin. When everything is in a fantasy context, it is not about US. It is us, human being who commit atrocities, and WE have to look at that dark side of our psyche in order to deal with it. “Fundamentally false and dishonest” is exactly right.
      Now I have a real issue with what I call violence porn. I think it veers into sadism, a voyeuristic kind of sadistic violence. The slow motion dripping blood, the erotically lit victim.
      I have had a real problem with GOT, I think they enjoy the violence a little too much. It seems to savor it. It also has a lot of naked women as furniture and women being raped as just background action. It rubs me the wrong way.
      I guess for me it is all about context. And it is all about how you show it. Rape, just like murder, is not pretty, and I have a real problem when it is set up that way visually.

      • #2942
        filmfixation
        Participant

        I ABSOLUTELY agree with Martin. When everything is in a fantasy context, it is not about US. It is us, human being who commit atrocities, and WE have to look at that dark side of our psyche in order to deal with it. “Fundamentally false and dishonest” is exactly right.
        Now I have a real issue with what I call violence porn. I think it veers into sadism, a voyeuristic kind of sadistic violence. The slow motion dripping blood, the erotically lit victim.
        I have had a real problem with GOT, I think they enjoy the violence a little too much. It seems to savor it. It also has a lot of naked women as furniture and women being raped as just background action. It rubs me the wrong way.
        I guess for me it is all about context. And it is all about how you show it. Rape, just like murder, is not pretty, and I have a real problem when it is set up that way visually.

        Youre right on with this Terry. Here’s what I think the team got right with the recent “almost rape” of Claire, though I will start by sharing a short anecdote…I was speaking with a female colleage of mine last week because we (the production company I work for) are working on a still in pre-production documentary about the recent string of young teen girls committing suicide after being raped/or sexual assaulted at alcohol fueled parties. I made this comment: “Well rape is really about men. It has nothing to do with women.” That stopped her cold. I realized that without more explanation that comment could be received badly…so I tried to explain. I told her that rape, as a construct, (and I will define it as male perpetrated rape for this context) is completely tied to a male desire to control, subjugate and terrorize-it never says anything about the woman except for the fact that she was chosen for it to happen to her (I dont like the term victim). Rape says nothing about female desire. It does however say much about male dominance and patriarchy. Similarly, white supremacy is NOT about people of color. It is about whiteness.

        So, I was thinking of this conversation as I watched the most recent episode and more specifically Clarie and Jaimie’s encounter with the redcoats. I just re-watched it to refresh my memory. We get a few low angle shots of the leering redcoat, and a few high angle shots looking down on Claire as she cowers. Now had the encountered continued as such I would have had a different reaction. But as the assault starts to take place we move into close ups of Claire’s face, POV shots of the man atop her and Jaime and the sequence is slowed down. Sound design here plays a role as well. The world fades and all we can hear is the sound of Claire breathing. All of these choices were intentional to not give power to the redcoat, or his “desires” but to highlight Claire’s subjective experience which culminates in her killing him. By foregrounding HER and what she is seeing and feeling, the rape itself isn’t important, its CLaire’s experience of the almost rape that is important. After all, we are well aware of what this man is about, we dont need close ups of his face as he starts to assault her body, we dont need to see him feel any pleasure because when it comes right down to it, his objective is violent, abhorrent and uncomplicated-not worth giving him subjectivity.

        NOW, this will be VERY different when we get to BJR and Jaime. Unlike this episode, Black Jack’s intentions while in the same ballpark, are far more complicated than this useless waste of space! Not to say that BJR is not a psychopath, but he is a figure we have invested in, and whose relationship to Jaime goes far deeper. I would imagine that entering his subjectivity in that scenario might actually lend itself to the narrative-while horrifying, I dont think it would be “violence porn” if handled with the right amount of restraint.

        Thoughts?

    • #2908
      martha
      Participant

      Do you think that there is still some kind of modesty among the viewers, that prevents them from seeing the show, without some kind of guilt?I think that the show is a, more than expected adaptation of the book and the way that it presents sensitive issues of the book is right. I cannot understand why there must be a conflict about this.”Game of thrones”, “Spartacus” are shows aired before “Outlander”, that have presented raw scenes of war, sex, rapes, assassinations etc. The problem here is that there is a heroine, a strong willed, intelligent and independent woman? Correct me if I got this wrong.

    • #2909
      Terry Dresbach
      Keymaster

      [quote quote=2902]How to phrase this? I’m pretty sure that the events in Wentworth, however they are portrayed are going to create a storm – the subject matter is just so different to what “mainstream” television would habitually show, and indeed I have vague memories of other shows (probably soap operas??) where male rape has been a storyline, but which has never visually been acknowledged. To paraphrasing DG/Jamie “knowing is far different from seeing” and I’m intrigued as to how these scenes will be shown…
      I’m personally most interested in when Jamie tells Claire about it – will that be in the show? How are they going to deal with that? How are they going to film when Claire “brings Jamie back”? *flashes of horrible war style pstd flashbacks* (please don’t do that ;-)) How do you portray on film that particular journey, and to what extent is the recovery harder to watch than the trauma?
      Don’t know if I’ve made myself clear, but I hope so![/quote]

      Obviously I can’t say anything about what has been shot. i am fascinated by the response of so many readers who have read this book that is filled with a LOT of sex and violence, Love the book, but don’t want the show to portray that. How do you (not YOU Tiggereos, reconcile what you are reading?) Sometimes I feel like I am reading a different book. This is a hard core book that presents things one doesn’t usually come across in a historical novel. I think it is incredibly brave, it shies away from NOTHING.
      It is going to be interesting, because the majority of viewers have not read the book, and will not understand that the show is an adaptation.

      • #2924
        ValhallaLilly
        Participant

        Oh man I just wandered through the book with the gang rape and I was like omg I feel really bad for Ron having to find a way to show that (what it was super late and I was planning very far ahead for the series!)

    • #2910
      Terry Dresbach
      Keymaster

      [quote quote=2908]Do you think that there is still some kind of modesty among the viewers, that prevents them from seeing the show, without some kind of guilt?I think that the show is a, more than expected adaptation of the book and the way that it presents sensitive issues of the book is right. I cannot understand why there must be a conflict about this.”Game of thrones”, “Spartacus” are shows aired before “Outlander”, that have presented raw scenes of war, sex, rapes, assassinations etc. The problem here is that there is a heroine, a strong willed, intelligent and independent woman? Correct me if I got this wrong.[/quote]

      I don’t think it is about violence as we have all seen a million times. We barely notice decapitations anymore. I think it will be because this show is portraying it in a very honestly, not cinematically. It will make people uncomfortable, as it should.

      • #2914
        martha
        Participant

        You are probably right.But I think it’s about time, we mature as viewers.What we don’t see with our own eyes, doesn’t mean that it doesn’t happen.

    • #2917
      Terry Dresbach
      Keymaster

      [quote quote=2912]Aren’t they/we/DG just showing what life was LIKE for a woman. How much of these books revolve around the fact that no matter how strong Claire is she cannot protect herself. There are two quotes about this later on (paraphrasing here) once when Donner tells Claire that he knew she was from the future because ‘she wasn’t afraid enough of men’ and that she ‘should be more afraid’. And one when Ian brings those two girls he finds to a brothel and doesn’t want them in danger and the Madame says (again, paraphrasing) ‘they were born girls; they were born in danger’ (which, doesn’t Cercei say something very similar in GoT?).

      Having been raped I can’t say I feel like things have changed a whole lot, except that my dad didn’t go out and kill my rapist to avenge me and my maidenhead… which leads me to the fact that of all the rapes it is Claire’s in BoSaA that I found the most horrifying because it was so common and so ordinary. She wasn’t facing a sociopath/sexual sadist/whatever BJR is, they were just MEN, ordinary men.

      Sorry, this is a little all over the place.

      [And since it is all over the place I would like to put it out there that I’m going to be really annoyed if Claire doesn’t get armpit hair (she didn’t in the Wedding episode. she clearly had a good waxing in the future) and if there’s full-frontal she has normal public hair. Not what I saw someone refer to as the “King’s Landing Strip” in reference to the women in GoT having well groomed privates.]
      [/quote]

      I just cannot agree with you more on all counts. Rape IS common and ordinary, and that is what makes it so horrifying. I suppose in the 18th century murder was to. In the 21st we have criminalized murder in ways that we do not criminalize rape.
      But the solution is not to hide under a rock (which clearly you are not advocating). Setting up some sort of rape per show quota. That is why I am so surprised to hear so many women object to showing rape in context, rape as a horrifying act. I suppose we are so accustomed to it being shown gratuitously, that we have no other context to view it in.

      I fought hard for body hair. It really bothers me that women in period shows are without it. Baby steps, I guess.

      • #2919
        rachely
        Participant

        But the solution is not to hide under a rock (which clearly you are not advocating). Setting up some sort of rape per show quota. That is why I am so surprised to hear so many women object to showing rape in context, rape as a horrifying act. I suppose we are so accustomed to it being shown gratuitously, that we have no other context to view it in.

        Yes, I have to say I’ve never been a fan of “trigger warnings” and the like. Rape is part of life and why can we not address it for the horror that it is? That it hurts, and it kills a part of you, but that if you’re lucky you can find your way out again. That even after you find your way out it is part of you forever. I’m going to make the assumption that Ron, et al, are smart enough to not treat Jamie’s rape (or other upcoming ones) as if it were a Law and Order when the rape is a plot point for an hour long episode and then forgotten.

        (If there’s no armpit hair we can’t have the hilarious scene where Claire gets it waxed in DiA!!)

    • #2918
      HarriettEl
      Participant

      I think the sexual situations depicted so far have been done very well, especially the ones where Claire takes charge. I don’t really like to include rape under sex because rape is usually associated with power and generally is not consensual; although, there has been some discussion associating rape with sexual release. One of the reasons Outlander does such a good job is that they’re starting out with such terrific source material. Many people thought the scene with Jenny was too much, but it showed early what kind of person BJR was. The attempted rape scenes in 108 were done appropriately, in my opinion. They followed the book very closely. Some viewers are upset by so much nudity from mostly just Claire. The details of the rape of Jamie by BJR was revealed during the opium session with Claire in France; so, I’m hoping the scenes are edited in a way to depict flashes of memory while under the influence. BJR is so vile in TV and book Outlander that I’m finding it difficult to watch the violent scenes with him in them. The last episode was really difficult. I actually think Black Sails did a good job of depicting both consensual sex and rape. It seems that most programs that depict consensual sex do so in a very passionate (quick) way and then move on to the remainder of the storyline. The wedding sex in Outlander was given an entire episode, which allowed for a build-up and more detail/emotion.

      One of the most interesting aspects of depicting consensual sex is that people seem to be more uncomfortable with sex scenes than with extremely violent scenes. It’s disturbing to me that movies with no sex/nudity but with extreme violence are Rated PG13, but movies that have sex/nudity are Rated R. What does this say about our society–that violence is tolerated more than non-violent sexual situations? This has always been troubling to me. Full frontal for men and women for that matter doesn’t bother me. Starz has done it with Black Sails and Spartacus. If it’s good for the goose, it’s good for the gander.

      Thank you for bringing up this subject. I appreciate your wanting input from the fans. We’re very lucky that Ron is doing the adaptation because he is masterful.

    • #2920
      Terry Dresbach
      Keymaster

      [quote quote=2919]

      But the solution is not to hide under a rock (which clearly you are not advocating). Setting up some sort of rape per show quota. That is why I am so surprised to hear so many women object to showing rape in context, rape as a horrifying act. I suppose we are so accustomed to it being shown gratuitously, that we have no other context to view it in.

      Yes, I have to say I’ve never been a fan of “trigger warnings” and the like. Rape is part of life and why can we not address it for the horror that it is? That it hurts, and it kills a part of you, but that if you’re lucky you can find your way out again. That even after you find your way out it is part of you forever. I’m going to make the assumption that Ron, et al, are smart enough to not treat Jamie’s rape (or other upcoming ones) as if it were a Law and Order when the rape is a plot point for an hour long episode and then forgotten.

      (If there’s no armpit hair we can’t have the hilarious scene where Claire gets it waxed in DiA!!)

      [/quote]

      No, that is not Ron’s style. Now is it Diana’s. Jamie’s rape stays with him, and thus with Claire throughout all the books. Because it would. I really respect that Diana has treated it that way. It is interesting to see that played out fro a male perspective, when it is usually just through a woman’s. It is part of you forever.

    • #2922
      Terry Dresbach
      Keymaster

      [quote quote=2918]I think the sexual situations depicted so far have been done very well, especially the ones where Claire takes charge. I don’t really like to include rape under sex because rape is usually associated with power and generally is not consensual; although, there has been some discussion associating rape with sexual release. One of the reasons Outlander does such a good job is that they’re starting out with such terrific source material. Many people thought the scene with Jenny was too much, but it showed early what kind of person BJR was. The attempted rape scenes in 108 were done appropriately, in my opinion. They followed the book very closely. Some viewers are upset by so much nudity from mostly just Claire. The details of the rape of Jamie by BJR was revealed during the opium session with Claire in France; so, I’m hoping the scenes are edited in a way to depict flashes of memory while under the influence. BJR is so vile in TV and book Outlander that I’m finding it difficult to watch the violent scenes with him in them. The last episode was really difficult. I actually think Black Sails did a good job of depicting both consensual sex and rape. It seems that most programs that depict consensual sex do so in a very passionate (quick) way and then move on to the remainder of the storyline. The wedding sex in Outlander was given an entire episode, which allowed for a build-up and more detail/emotion.

      One of the most interesting aspects of depicting consensual sex is that people seem to be more uncomfortable with sex scenes than with extremely violent scenes. It’s disturbing to me that movies with no sex/nudity but with extreme violence are Rated PG13, but movies that have sex/nudity are Rated R. What does this say about our society–that violence is tolerated more than non-violent sexual situations? This has always been troubling to me. Full frontal for men and women for that matter doesn’t bother me. Starz has done it with Black Sails and Spartacus. If it’s good for the goose, it’s good for the gander.

      Thank you for bringing up this subject. I appreciate your wanting input from the fans. We’re very lucky that Ron is doing the adaptation because he is masterful.
      [/quote]

      It is very interesting to work on a show where is sex in just sex, not soft porn. One of the reasons I got out of the business was I just could not take what I felt was a porn approach to women. The exaggerated breasts, hair, makeup. The pressure to dress every woman as a porn star no matter who she is , is inescapable. Shorter, lower, tighter. It is degrading, and it is desensitizing. Our young people are starting to view porn as very young children, and it is informing their sexual expectations.
      I think what Maureen Ryan and others are referring to as a “female gaze” (did she use that term?) is actually a human gaze. What the wedding night was in truth, was nothing more than a normal sexual experience between two people. Cait doesn’t have 10 pounds of makeup on, her lips have not been injected, not have her breasts, Sam is not covered in spray tan, and they do not engage in porn sex.
      It is incredible that we are all just getting around to such an approach.

      • #2944
        elizlk
        Participant

        Outlander the show and DG’s books depict sexual and other violence in a way that adds depth to the characters and story. The fact that the sexual violence is shown in a way that makes me want to look away in horror as much as seeing an arm amputated is entirely appropriate, I think.
        As some others have mentioned, we’re almost numb to violence in society. Rape, sexual violence and the objectification of women are used today to control women, or worse, taken for granted as the way women “should be” in society. The fact that show is taking the trouble to convey the horror of the sexual violence/rapes also deserves attention. So much of what we see in media (advertising, video games, TV and movies) reinforce women as sex objects. It’s easy to see why violence against women, portrayed as objects, continues to be tolerated in society, given the dominance of such images.
        I commend Ron and the whole team for the way Outlander is taking on Claire as a strong, sexual being, and taking on the violence she experiences, and presumably how others will do so. It’s not WHY I’m watching the series, but it is why I’m talking about it on my blog and with other people who are not watching or fans of the books.

    • #2932
      martha
      Participant

      This is a big issue, indeed. What the movie industry-and not only- has promoted the past years has led to this kind of expectations.We have come to a point, where we see teenage girls, which are trying to imitate 35 year old women and that, many demand to be normal.Teenage boys and men expect women to be these “plastic” dolls, expect things that are not real.I’m not being prude, here( i hope this is the right word, sorry for my english), but this is how i see thinks. And that is what I love in the show. You show things as they would have been, without any powder on, without anything. The clothes have wrinkles, the hair are messy, the clothes are dirty!At last!

    • #2937
      ValhallaLilly
      Participant

      I hope I can say this without sounding mental.
      One of the scenes I just really loved in the wedding episode was where they were lying next to each other. And Claire was topless, like usually you’d see women under a sheet…
      1. It was just so so pretty and 2. She just seemed so comfortable.
      I know this isn’t coming across as clearly as I want it and it’s probably more honest than I want to show but it felt like the sex wasn’t something to hide from or be ashamed of. And like you kinda compare your own dislikes with your body to others but it made me feel happy because like Terry said up there^ Caitriona doesn’t have tons of makeup etc.
      anywhoo I’m running off to hide now!

    • #2941
      Terry Dresbach
      Keymaster

      That is Ron, through and through. One of the lead women in BSG was in her 50’s, in Carnivale there were female leads of al ages AND sizes. But that is because he is telling stories of human beings, IN CONTEXT.

    • #2949
      Terry Dresbach
      Keymaster

      [quote quote=2921]Honestly I’m too lazy to read that article but what I thought when I saw the title was really? Doesn’t GOT have like 8 million rapes? (which again too lazy to read that but it just seems that GOT seems to get a lot of acclaim and to complain about outlander I was like ?)[/quote]

      Naked women as set dressing. Boardwalk Empire does it all the time too. That was an interesting read, and the comments even more so.
      Funny how their were so many articles and reviewers saying that the show was working too hard at pushing a feminist agenda, now it is anti feminist, and fetishizing rape.
      Talk about whiplash. All in eight episodes!

      • #2957
        filmfixation
        Participant

        SERIOUSLY. My last post was a brief attempt to undermine that writer, who by the way just happened to be male.

        He obviously did not understand the different between a healthy, consensual sexual encounter where there is a dominant and submissive interaction at work and then RAPE.

        huh??

    • #2952
      Terry Dresbach
      Keymaster

      [quote quote=2937]I hope I can say this without sounding mental.
      One of the scenes I just really loved in the wedding episode was where they were lying next to each other. And Claire was topless, like usually you’d see women under a sheet…
      1. It was just so so pretty and 2. She just seemed so comfortable.
      I know this isn’t coming across as clearly as I want it and it’s probably more honest than I want to show but it felt like the sex wasn’t something to hide from or be ashamed of. And like you kinda compare your own dislikes with your body to others but it made me feel happy because like Terry said up there^ Caitriona doesn’t have tons of makeup etc.
      anywhoo I’m running off to hide now![/quote]

      No, I had the EXACT same thought at the EXACT same moment. She looked REAL, and it was so refreshing.

      • #3543
        ValhallaLilly
        Participant

        Ohhh good I’m not crazy! I’m so glad someone else understood this.

    • #2959
      HarriettEl
      Participant

      No need to hide re: the topless part on the bed. I agree, it is much more natural. I hate when people are holding sheets up to their chests or walk around with an entire sheet on or having sex in a bra but no panties.

    • #2962
      Terry Dresbach
      Keymaster

      [quote quote=2942]I ABSOLUTELY agree with Martin. When everything is in a fantasy context, it is not about US. It is us, human being who commit atrocities, and WE have to look at that dark side of our psyche in order to deal with it. “Fundamentally false and dishonest” is exactly right.
      Now I have a real issue with what I call violence porn. I think it veers into sadism, a voyeuristic kind of sadistic violence. The slow motion dripping blood, the erotically lit victim.
      I have had a real problem with GOT, I think they enjoy the violence a little too much. It seems to savor it. It also has a lot of naked women as furniture and women being raped as just background action. It rubs me the wrong way.
      I guess for me it is all about context. And it is all about how you show it. Rape, just like murder, is not pretty, and I have a real problem when it is set up that way visually.

      Youre right on with this Terry. Here’s what I think the team got right with the recent “almost rape” of Claire, though I will start by sharing a short anecdote…I was speaking with a female colleage of mine last week because we (the production company I work for) are working on a still in pre-production documentary about the recent string of young teen girls committing suicide after being raped/or sexual assaulted at alcohol fueled parties. I made this comment: “Well rape is really about men. It has nothing to do with women.” That stopped her cold. I realized that without more explanation that comment could be received badly…so I tried to explain. I told her that rape, as a construct, (and I will define it as male perpetrated rape for this context) is completely tied to a male desire to control, subjugate and terrorize-it never says anything about the woman except for the fact that she was chosen for it to happen to her (I dont like the term victim). Rape says nothing about female desire. It does however say much about male dominance and patriarchy. Similarly, white supremacy is NOT about people of color. It is about whiteness.
      My comments in bold: Absolutely agree. It is not about women, it is not about sex. It is about power, domination subjection, and a mans need to feel like he has power by dominating or subjugating someone weaker than himself. Which is why little girls and elderly woman get raped. Not just young, pretty women on TV. One day when we are rally brave, we will show those conquering heroes raping 80 year old women. Because it is not about sex.

      So, I was thinking of this conversation as I watched the most recent episode and more specifically Clarie and Jaimie’s encounter with the redcoats. I just re-watched it to refresh my memory. We get a few low angle shots of the leering redcoat, and a few high angle shots looking down on Claire as she cowers. Now had the encountered continued as such I would have had a different reaction. But as the assault starts to take place we move into close ups of Claire’s face, POV shots of the man atop her and Jaime and the sequence is slowed down. Sound design here plays a role as well. The world fades and all we can hear is the sound of Claire breathing. All of these choices were intentional to not give power to the redcoat, or his “desires” but to highlight Claire’s subjective experience which culminates in her killing him. By foregrounding HER and what she is seeing and feeling, the rape itself isn’t important, its CLaire’s experience of the almost rape that is important. After all, we are well aware of what this man is about, we dont need close ups of his face as he starts to assault her body, we dont need to see him feel any pleasure because when it comes right down to it, his objective is violent, abhorrent and uncomplicated-not worth giving him subjectivity.

      EXACTLY !!!!!!! But you have a very sophisticated view and a deeper understanding of what is happening. I just finished reading the piece posted above, and the comments, and that flew right over them. The discussion stayed in, how many times can a rape occur per episode. Requires some deep thinking to understand, i think.

      NOW, this will be VERY different when we get to BJR and Jaime. Unlike this episode, Black Jack’s intentions while in the same ballpark, are far more complicated than this useless waste of space! Not to say that BJR is not a psychopath, but he is a figure we have invested in, and whose relationship to Jaime goes far deeper. I would imagine that entering his subjectivity in that scenario might actually lend itself to the narrative-while horrifying, I dont think it would be “violence porn” if handled with the right amount of restraint.

      Thoughts?
      [/quote]

      Oh, I think that no matter what or how it is portrayed, the world is going to go up in flames.

      Again there were book fans advocating that the beating of Claire, and the rape of Jamie not be included in the show. That, I do not get. Refuse to read any more books because it is offensive, that I understand.

      • #2967
        filmfixation
        Participant

        i agree with the flames part…because as we all know (even more now that we have the INTERNET) a lot of people dont get it.

        haha. They just dont. Obviously I have been to film school and am a filmmaker myself so I have some understanding as to the intentionality behind shot choices/sound design ect-but the overarching artistic product is fairly clear, and to not see it is to be left behind by great works of visual storytelling…kinda sad really!!

        “Hey people! We’re over here redefining television, JOIN US WONT YOU??”

      • #2969
        rachely
        Participant

        Again there were book fans advocating that the beating of Claire, and the rape of Jamie not be included in the show. That, I do not get. Refuse to read any more books because it is offensive, that I understand.

        I read a comment by someone who said that Jamie beating Claire make Jamie just as bad as BJR. Now, I don’t condone wife beating but really now, a little perspective here!

      • #2973
        filmfixation
        Participant

        also- I have not encountered these book fans who think these things should be omitted from the show but SERIOUSLY PEOPLE?!? I would love to read an argument for that because it would be entertaining to read someone try to justify liking the books but not wanting it depicted in the show. For some, I would imagine, even reading it was a challenge and to see it dramatized in a fully realized world would simply be too overwhelming. To them I say-trust Ron.

    • #2963
      Terry Dresbach
      Keymaster

      [quote quote=2959]No need to hide re: the topless part on the bed. I agree, it is much more natural. I hate when people are holding sheets up to their chests or walk around with an entire sheet on or having sex in a bra but no panties.[/quote]

      That always bothers me so much. Let the actress wear a t. shirt like real people do. Who has sex WEARING a bra? It can still be sexy, even sexier if you do it right. No imagination.

      • #3202
        Shanaynay
        Participant

        I hate wearing a bra to bed…it is not good for circulation either :0 so it is indeed unnatural! I hate the movie sex sheet/bra thing… Especially when the woman seems to have the whole top sheet wrapped super tight all around her!
        I loved that Jamie kept his own shirt on…it was natural.
        The boots did make me chuckle…but he was ready to go and he went…who would have time to fuss with boots in that situation really?
        And for him to go down to the taproom all the same also felt natural and real…
        Maybe it was confidence…maybe it is just what you did in 18th c. Scotland at an inn/pub…

    • #2966
      Terry Dresbach
      Keymaster

      [quote quote=2957]SERIOUSLY. My last post was a brief attempt to undermine that writer, who by the way just happened to be male.

      He obviously did not understand the different between a healthy, consensual sexual encounter where there is a dominant and submissive interaction at work and then RAPE.

      huh??
      [/quote]
      That was written by a man??? I have to re-read now.

      • #2968
        filmfixation
        Participant

        unless its a woman going by Dustin…?

    • #2970
      tiggeros
      Participant

      I completely agree with martha and elizlk… I work with young people, and come face to face every day with the reality that they are neither shocked or bothered by anything they see on film… or even if they are, it is a fleeting emotion, which will soon be forgotten. The way sex and violence and, indeed, women is portrayed in the mainstream media, has exacerbated this tendency. I’m only 33, but I’m pretty sure that if any guys in my class in secondary school had talked to me, or about women in the way they do now, that we would have crucified them! Which is why I think people are finding the “sex scenes” in outlander so refreshing. They are real. They make you feel good, or uncomfortable, or content, or scared, or they make you *squee* depending on the scene. Thanks to the directors/producers and their depiction of events. We are not being bombarded with falsehoods, like in an episode of KUWTK, or even True Blood, GOT, which is probably why everyone’s talking about the episode, and not Sam Heughan’s behind!

    • #2971
      Terry Dresbach
      Keymaster

      [quote quote=2967]i agree with the flames part…because as we all know (even more now that we have the INTERNET) a lot of people dont get it.

      haha. They just dont. Obviously I have been to film school and am a filmmaker myself so I have some understanding as to the intentionality behind shot choices/sound design ect-but the overarching artistic product is fairly clear, and to not see it is to be left behind by great works of visual storytelling…kinda sad really!!

      “Hey people! We’re over here redefining television, JOIN US WONT YOU??”
      [/quote]

      Ron did that on BSG, and it was groundbreaking. Redefined television. I don’t believe Homeland, or even Breaking Bad, would ever have made it onscreen without having the way paved by BSG. Drives me nuts. But Ron is a different kind of animal. He is good with quiet, personal satisfaction.

      • #2975
        filmfixation
        Participant

        my boyfriend is similar. Perhaps they balance our fiery indignation out just right with their own form. BSG is truly a masterpiece. Truly. Truly. It has stayed with me.

      • #3056
        Katie (@bunnums)
        Participant

        I just started season 4 of BSG. Love it! But it took me until well into season 2 before I thought about the fact that so many of the people in power (President, obviously, but also Kara and Boomer) were women. It just felt normal to me (I have a lot of strong women in my life) so I didn’t really notice at first.

        But what I like even more about BSG is that no one in that world *comments* on the position of women. Because it’s just such the norm that there’s no need to discuss it. I can only hope to live in a world like that.

        Though it would also be nice to include in our world to accept as normal that men can be vulnerable and affectionate and witty (not sidekick-witty). Maybe that’s one of the reason Jamie appeals to me as much as Claire – they both break a lot of gender stereotypes in positive ways.

        Katie

    • #2972
      Terry Dresbach
      Keymaster

      [quote quote=2970]I completely agree with martha and elizlk… I work with young people, and come face to face every day with the reality that they are neither shocked or bothered by anything they see on film… or even if they are, it is a fleeting emotion, which will soon be forgotten. The way sex and violence and, indeed, women is portrayed in the mainstream media, has exacerbated this tendency. I’m only 33, but I’m pretty sure that if any guys in my class in secondary school had talked to me, or about women in the way they do now, that we would have crucified them! Which is why I think people are finding the “sex scenes” in outlander so refreshing. They are real. They make you feel good, or uncomfortable, or content, or scared, or they make you *squee* depending on the scene. Thanks to the directors/producers and their depiction of events. We are not being bombarded with falsehoods, like in an episode of KUWTK, or even True Blood, GOT, which is probably why everyone’s talking about the episode, and not Sam Heughan’s behind! [/quote]

      What is your take on the rape issue?

    • #2974
      Terry Dresbach
      Keymaster

      Ron is subversive. I have to remember to tell him that. Everyone thinks I am the wild haired radical. LOL

      • #2977
        filmfixation
        Participant

        ron is totally subversive!!! Do tell him that. And thank goodness such a man has the guts to take on this beast of an adaptation…

      • #2987
        martha
        Participant

        I would say,continue the good work, and don’t mind what anyone might say!Someone said, “if you were born to be unique, why try and be like the rest?” 🙂

    • #2976
      tiggeros
      Participant

      Which one? The redcoats? BJR to Claire? BJR to Jamie? And which issue – the fact they are in the show? Or the way they’ve been filmed so far?

      • #2978
        elizlk
        Participant

        tiggeros

        Which one? The redcoats? BJR to Claire? BJR to Jamie? And which issue – the fact they are in the show? Or the way they’ve been filmed so far?
        How they’re handled

        Any/all of the above, but especially what’s been shown/done so far in the show.

    • #2979
      Terry Dresbach
      Keymaster

      [quote quote=2975]my boyfriend is similar. Perhaps they balance our fiery indignation out just right with their own form. BSG is truly a masterpiece. Truly. Truly. It has stayed with me.[/quote]

    • #2980
      Terry Dresbach
      Keymaster

      [quote quote=2969]

      Again there were book fans advocating that the beating of Claire, and the rape of Jamie not be included in the show. That, I do not get. Refuse to read any more books because it is offensive, that I understand.

      I read a comment by someone who said that Jamie beating Claire make Jamie just as bad as BJR. Now, I don’t condone wife beating but really now, a little perspective here!

      [/quote]

      Really??? That is a very simplistic view of things.

    • #2981
      Terry Dresbach
      Keymaster

      [quote quote=2969]

      Again there were book fans advocating that the beating of Claire, and the rape of Jamie not be included in the show. That, I do not get. Refuse to read any more books because it is offensive, that I understand.

      I read a comment by someone who said that Jamie beating Claire make Jamie just as bad as BJR. Now, I don’t condone wife beating but really now, a little perspective here!

      [/quote]

      Really??? That is a very simplistic view of things.

    • #2982
      Terry Dresbach
      Keymaster

      [quote quote=2969]

      Again there were book fans advocating that the beating of Claire, and the rape of Jamie not be included in the show. That, I do not get. Refuse to read any more books because it is offensive, that I understand.

      I read a comment by someone who said that Jamie beating Claire make Jamie just as bad as BJR. Now, I don’t condone wife beating but really now, a little perspective here!

      [/quote]

      Really??? That is a very simplistic view of things.

    • #2983
      Terry Dresbach
      Keymaster

      [quote quote=2969]

      Again there were book fans advocating that the beating of Claire, and the rape of Jamie not be included in the show. That, I do not get. Refuse to read any more books because it is offensive, that I understand.

      I read a comment by someone who said that Jamie beating Claire make Jamie just as bad as BJR. Now, I don’t condone wife beating but really now, a little perspective here!

      [/quote]

      Really??? That is a very simplistic view of things.

      • #2988
        filmfixation
        Participant

        It certainly is. I was definitely challenged by the Jaime-punishing-Claire passage in the book. There is the obvious reaction anytime a woman is met with violence or discomfort (that is undesired) by a man-any man.

        I think more than that it had to do with the complete dismantling of the “Dashing Male Hero Who Can Do No Wrong”. Jaime is as much a product of his environment, and while he grows to think for himself and see Claire as an equal, it doesn’t happen overnight like loosing his virginity did. We are so used to our male heroes being exempt from social conditioning despite the historical context-they have to be honorable AND sexy AND loving AND respectful. Well guess what-Jaime is many of those things but he is also a man of what, 23, 24 in the books at this point, and not unsusceptible to the 18th century equivalent of “peer pressure”. The “clan mentality” is a real thing-and powerful. He makes a mistake, and it took me a long time to forgive him, and the book really, for it. But I came to understand that it had more to do with my ability to accept Claire NO MATTER WHAT while simultaneously holding Jaime to the impossible “Handsome Hero Scot of The Year” standard.

      • #2994
        rachely
        Participant

        And ignores the fact that Jamie does, in point of law, OWN Claire and can beat her. And, actually, in The Exile we find out that Dougal wants to beat her in public and Jamie says he’ll do it privately as he’s her husband and its his job.

        It’s a rough scene, but it was also a rough time!! I also always liked the part after that when Claire admits that, after living through WWII, it was true that she didn’t take things seriously. That she was having problem adjusting to the fact that one life lost in 1743 was no more tragic than millions upon millions deaths in WWII.

    • #2984
      Terry Dresbach
      Keymaster

      [quote quote=2977]ron is totally subversive!!! Do tell him that. And thank goodness such a man has the guts to take on this beast of an adaptation…[/quote]

      I just did. He laughed.
      It is quite a beast.

      • #2989
        filmfixation
        Participant

        such a beast. it bites, roars, and has very impressive fangs to boot. but its kind of beautiful too 🙂

    • #2986
      HarriettEl
      Participant

      What did Ron do on BSG? I was just thinking yesterday that it would be cool to see Mary Mcdonnell in a walk-on in Outlander. I love her!

      Re: my previous post, I’m not saying lingerie is a bad thing just using it as a way to cover up a woman to make a scene more palatable for viewers or censors.

      I understand why the Internet will flame because of certain scenes, but one would think that if you are watching a show on premium cable that one would expect shows to be more realistic, sexy, racy, violent, or whatever the subject matter is–not differentiating between well-done shows or bad. Although, I think Outlander is one of the best–appropriate, believable, and not gratuitous.

    • #2990
      Debbie Dake
      Participant

      I think all the sex scenes have been handled pretty perfectly. The wedding night was more real than any love scene I’ve ever seen, from their bodies to their faces, Sam and Cait did such a fine, fine job. It was written and acted flawlessly, for me at least.

      The (attempted) rape scene was also pretty real, although I have never, fortunately, experienced anything like that myself. The aftermath for Claire, her shock, absolutely brought it home for me. She was damaged in that moment and was not going to get past it easily. I loved that part.

      Each episode has been done so well that I’m actually feeling a bit of trepidation at the thought of some upcoming scenes that are even more brutal than Jamie’s flogging and the attempted rape of Claire. It’s one thing to read these scenes but it’ll be another entirely to see them brought to visual life. I can’t wait to see them, even though I may want to turn away.

      Have you seen the conversations around the anticipated depiction of the punishment Claire will be receiving from Jamie? That’s causing quite a stir too. It’s an interesting discussion. To me, it wasn’t unfair for the time. And even though my husband and I agreed we wouldn’t spank our daughter, when Jamie explained the discipline he received from his father and the effect it had on him, I got it. Again, I think it was good for the time. But I’m glad we didn’t have to spank Lydia.

      ~ Debbie

      • #2991
        filmfixation
        Participant

        I’m kind of foaming at the mouth with anticipation for how the punishment scene will be presented-i have some suspicions as to how it might be handled and I relish the promise of further conversation to be had on forums like this!

        I have a feeling we will get peaks inside both character’s subjectivities during the encounter. If not directly during-perhaps in flashback. I’m sure the Jaime-Adoration and Obsession will be compromised, but what a fun thing to work with creatively! I mean…thats what this book does-completely dismantles your foothold on who these people are and the choices you think they will make-thats part of the reason they have sustained thousands of pages and millions of readers (hey, and watchers now too!)

    • #2992
      Terry Dresbach
      Keymaster

      BSG was his show.
      Same as this.

      Agree about the lingerie. The point is that it reads false. It would be better to just have a woman wearing a t shirt, because that happens all the time. But that would never be allowed in this day and age of soft porn.

    • #2993
      HarriettEl
      Participant

      If depicted in the show, I wonder how people will react to what Claire did with the King of France. There’s also the rape and attempted rape in France in book 2.

      (P.S. Where are we since it’s after 10pm on the post time?)

    • #2995
      Terry Dresbach
      Keymaster

      [quote quote=2988]It certainly is. I was definitely challenged by the Jaime-punishing-Claire passage in the book. There is the obvious reaction anytime a woman is met with violence or discomfort (that is undesired) by a man-any man.

      I think more than that it had to do with the complete dismantling of the “Dashing Male Hero Who Can Do No Wrong”. Jaime is as much a product of his environment, and while he grows to think for himself and see Claire as an equal, it doesn’t happen overnight like loosing his virginity did. We are so used to our male heroes being exempt from social conditioning despite the historical context-they have to be honorable AND sexy AND loving AND respectful. Well guess what-Jaime is many of those things but he is also a man of what, 23, 24 in the books at this point, and not unsusceptible to the 18th century equivalent of “peer pressure”. The “clan mentality” is a real thing-and powerful. He makes a mistake, and it took me a long time to forgive him, and the book really, for it. But I came to understand that it had more to do with my ability to accept Claire NO MATTER WHAT while simultaneously holding Jaime to the impossible “Handsome Hero Scot of The Year” standard.
      [/quote]

      I was okay once Jamie said that a man who risked everyone’s life would have been hung or whipped. Now we have equality. Claire should not have any consequences for putting everyone’s lives at risk, because she is a woman. That, to me is just a different flavor of sexism, and it cheapens the equality issue.

      • #3010
        gemma
        Participant

        I agree. Also, as someone mentioned earlier (I apologize I forgot who), Jamie is not perfect, nobody is. He is after all a product of his time. I am also in complete agreement with Terry that Claire shouldn’t get a different treatment just because she is a woman. That would indeed be Just a different flavor of sexism.

        Hmm…sorry you all. I feel my writing skills are not as good as all of yours. There are so many great comments made, It’s wonderful to read them and see that I’m not the only one with these thoughts and observations.

        One more thing I’d like to mention before I post and continue reading the other posts, Terry, you and Ron and your team did a PERFECT job so far in bringing the book to life. I’m very much looking forward to seeing how it continues. Ok…off to read all your wonderful comments.

      • #3112
        filmfixation
        Participant

        I was okay once Jamie said that a man who risked everyone’s life would have been hung or whipped. Now we have equality. Claire should not have any consequences for putting everyone’s lives at risk, because she is a woman. That, to me is just a different flavor of sexism, and it cheapens the equality issue.

        Yes, though, just for some fun, we could also look at it a slightly different way…

        True. Equality is vital, essential, and a central thrust of the feminist movement. However, why would we want equal treatment within a patriarchy? Radical feminism posits that equality is one thing, but the true target is to dismantle the system, rather than find an equal place within it. Similar debates have been an undercurrent in the marriage equality movement where some queer folks have struggled between their obvious desire to advocate for full rights (rights that they are entitled to) and their desire to question the very institution of marriage-let alone gender identity in this country.

        Yes, conceivably Claire should be treated equal right? Equality is what we want. However I would argue that what is MORE vital is a questioning of the cultural heritage of wifely property (Scotland is hardly the “outlander” in this ugly truth-this was allll over the world, and still exists in many places) and the use of violence as a means to dispense justice (upon both male and female bodies).

        And finally, this is the reason I stayed with the books, despite some early misgivings at encountering this section. Jaime and Claire function as advocates for a total re-thinking of the marriage relationship. They DO dismantle the patriarchical norm by forging a revolutionary partnership in which they play to their strengths and completely disregard societal norms regarding marriage.

        Perhaps they needed to go through this episode, (Jaime punishing her) to realize that they didnt want to bend to the insidious gendered expectations of the time. Thats the thing about Diana’s books-they take their time in giving you a full picture. Folks will see this happen on the show and struggle with it as I did and the show will have to take its time to show the progression in the relationship.

    • #2996
      rachely
      Participant

      I was okay once Jamie said that a man who risked everyone’s life would have been hung or whipped. Now we have equality. Claire should not have any consequences for putting everyone’s lives at risk, because she is a woman. That, to me is just a different flavor of sexism, and it cheapens the equality issue.

      AGREE. And, again in some later book (were they talking about Malva maybe?) he makes a very interesting (from a 21st century perspective) on the difference between “beating” your wife or child and “punishing” them. You didn’t strap people for the joy of doing it (the way Rabbie’s dad did) but because it was justice.

    • #2997
      Terry Dresbach
      Keymaster

      [quote quote=2990]I think all the sex scenes have been handled pretty perfectly. The wedding night was more real than any love scene I’ve ever seen, from their bodies to their faces, Sam and Cait did such a fine, fine job. It was written and acted flawlessly, for me at least.

      The (attempted) rape scene was also pretty real, although I have never, fortunately, experienced anything like that myself. The aftermath for Claire, her shock, absolutely brought it home for me. She was damaged in that moment and was not going to get past it easily. I loved that part.

      Each episode has been done so well that I’m actually feeling a bit of trepidation at the thought of some upcoming scenes that are even more brutal than Jamie’s flogging and the attempted rape of Claire. It’s one thing to read these scenes but it’ll be another entirely to see them brought to visual life. I can’t wait to see them, even though I may want to turn away.

      Have you seen the conversations around the anticipated depiction of the punishment Claire will be receiving from Jamie? That’s causing quite a stir too. It’s an interesting discussion. To me, it wasn’t unfair for the time. And even though my husband and I agreed we wouldn’t spank our daughter, when Jamie explained the discipline he received from his father and the effect it had on him, I got it. Again, I think it was good for the time. But I’m glad we didn’t have to spank Lydia.

      ~ Debbie
      [/quote]
      I have not seen any of the discussions. I assume they are on closed FB pages. People get upset when you say that it has to be put in historical context, but isn’t that the whole point of a time traveling story. What a person from one time has to deal with in another.

    • #2998
      Terry Dresbach
      Keymaster

      [quote quote=2994]And ignores the fact that Jamie does, in point of law, OWN Claire and can beat her. And, actually, in The Exile we find out that Dougal wants to beat her in public and Jamie says he’ll do it privately as he’s her husband and its his job.

      It’s a rough scene, but it was also a rough time!! I also always liked the part after that when Claire admits that, after living through WWII, it was true that she didn’t take things seriously. That she was having problem adjusting to the fact that one life lost in 1743 was no more tragic than millions upon millions deaths in WWII.
      [/quote]
      Again, the entire point of a time travel book.

      • #3001
        HarriettEl
        Participant

        Absolutely–history shouldn’t be changed because it makes people uncomfortable. It should teach us and enlighten us and hopefully learn from the good and the bad.

      • #3005
        rachely
        Participant

        There was an article in the Washington Post maybe a year ago, about some mother who didn’t want her son reading Toni Morrison’s Beloved because it included men having sex with animals. She didn’t , apparently, have a problem with rape, murder, slavery, the boys stealing Sethe’s milk, and all the other incredible horrors being written about. It was at that point I just decided that people are really, really weird.

        That being said, I just poured my third whisky… I should probably stop talking now (I should also probably stop trying to pleat things).

        • This reply was modified 7 years, 8 months ago by rachely.
    • #3000
      Terry Dresbach
      Keymaster

      [quote quote=2991]I’m kind of foaming at the mouth with anticipation for how the punishment scene will be presented-i have some suspicions as to how it might be handled and I relish the promise of further conversation to be had on forums like this!

      I have a feeling we will get peaks inside both character’s subjectivities during the encounter. If not directly during-perhaps in flashback. I’m sure the Jaime-Adoration and Obsession will be compromised, but what a fun thing to work with creatively! I mean…thats what this book does-completely dismantles your foothold on who these people are and the choices you think they will make-thats part of the reason they have sustained thousands of pages and millions of readers (hey, and watchers now too!)
      [/quote]
      Oh, I am getting on my crash helmet. So much for the show being heavy handed on the feminist push, as everyone was saying.
      I used to think that was why people liked it. But I am starting to wonder if it isn’t really for jamie’s ass (not everyone, of course), and everyone just sort of blips over thee tricky bits. That is why people complain about too much Frank, and even too much Claire (unless it is about fantasizing you are Claire so you can be with Jamie). It’s hot guy in a kilt, swoon, squeeeeee.

      • #3002
        HarriettEl
        Participant

        I’ve read so many interviews with Sam about these “controversial” scenes, but I haven’t read very many with Cait about the nudity/sex, etc. All along I’ve been wondering how she feels, since the show is about her.

      • #3279
        Hope
        Participant

        Terry;

        I need to say here that my appreciation for Jamie came initially for how very smart he is. Claire is spontaneous and impulsive and driven by good intentions. Jamie has an amazing understanding of people and the society he lives in and that is how he survives, and then helps Claire survive during hard times. The beauty of the those two doesn’t hurt, not at all. And it is nice to have a hero with the courage and strength to carry through his promises of protection. I think this is something that has been lost in the present day which may be one reason we all appreciate it in Jamie. Today women are expected to protect ourselves, and we do to a large extent, but then we come up against those times when we simply can’t and the culture has changed enough that frequently no one else steps up. (I’m thinking of the girls who have been raped by one or more boys while others videotape the whole thing. But there are more examples. I’ve personally known about fraternity parties where basically all the ‘brothers’ know that drinks for girls have been ‘rufied’ and no one says a thing.)
        I did love the Wedding episode and enjoyed seeing the bodies, but even more important to me was to see Jamie at work, finding his way to this angry and scared woman and bringing him around to start to be able to see him. What an amazing arc over that chapter.
        Hope

      • #3013
        Debbie Dake
        Participant

        Regarding Jamie’s ass, it does seem like many of us women are behaving in a way that we would criticize if we saw a man behave that way. That is, of course, not to say that it isn’t lovely. The character of Jamie, though, is what is most attractive about the story for me. It doesn’t hurt that the actor that plays him is Sam. In my world, strong women like Claire are prevalent, and too-good-to-be-true men aren’t.

        That’s not to say that there aren’t good men in my world; there are. But they don’t compare to fictional Jamie. I’m really happy for those of you who have found men who do.

      • #3493
        @gracesmom48
        Participant

        Terry, People love these books because Claire is a strong woman and (*dare I say) a feminist before her time and the relationship with Jamie that comes from that. There are a zillion books about hot guys with cute butts, and nobody cares about them. People are obsessed with Outlander, therefore you were right the first time. * (I said dare I say, because I live in Texas and they’ll burn you at the stake for that around these here parts).

    • #3003
      Terry Dresbach
      Keymaster

      [quote quote=2996]

      I was okay once Jamie said that a man who risked everyone’s life would have been hung or whipped. Now we have equality. Claire should not have any consequences for putting everyone’s lives at risk, because she is a woman. That, to me is just a different flavor of sexism, and it cheapens the equality issue.

      AGREE. And, again in some later book (were they talking about Malva maybe?) he makes a very interesting (from a 21st century perspective) on the difference between “beating” your wife or child and “punishing” them. You didn’t strap people for the joy of doing it (the way Rabbie’s dad did) but because it was justice.

      [/quote]
      Interesting, Ron uses that word about Claire’s beating. But Ron is Jamie, to a t.

      • #3006
        rachely
        Participant

        Then tell him I adore him even more than I do for him having given me a name for my kid. and for giving us Kara. 🙂

    • #3008
      Marian
      Participant

      Terry,
      Thank you for taking time out of your life to host this blog and forum. I was happy to read the article and see the TV Adaptation of Outlander being given the thoughtful analysis it deserves. Bringing this book to life as you and the Team have done is an amazing feat. I credit Anna Foerster and Anne Kenney with dealing honestly with the violence that is rape. The range of real emotions and believable, multi-dimensional personalities portrayed by the actors was amazing. (For what it’s worth, I believe Jack is a sociopath in addition to being a sadist.) We think of the violent near-rape events as only happening to Claire, but Jaime too is wracked with pain and guilt about his role of putting her in danger by not taking normal (for that time) precautions (Hugh Munroe easily tracking them and shooting the arrow should have been a warning, then the deserters, then (possibly) Jack.) It’s hard not to take an ethnocentric (if that’s the right use of the term) view of the time period and violent conflict that was a daily occurrence. Book readers know that there is a long journey ahead in the second half of the season as Claire and Jaime learn to find strength in each other and live through hell in a triumph of love over fear and violence. Based on the Talented Team that Ron D. Moore has assembled for this project, I’m confident you all will make it work brilliantly. -Marian

    • #3022
      Terry Dresbach
      Keymaster

      [quote quote=2944]Outlander the show and DG’s books depict sexual and other violence in a way that adds depth to the characters and story. The fact that the sexual violence is shown in a way that makes me want to look away in horror as much as seeing an arm amputated is entirely appropriate, I think.
      As some others have mentioned, we’re almost numb to violence in society. Rape, sexual violence and the objectification of women are used today to control women, or worse, taken for granted as the way women “should be” in society. The fact that show is taking the trouble to convey the horror of the sexual violence/rapes also deserves attention. So much of what we see in media (advertising, video games, TV and movies) reinforce women as sex objects. It’s easy to see why violence against women, portrayed as objects, continues to be tolerated in society, given the dominance of such images.
      I commend Ron and the whole team for the way Outlander is taking on Claire as a strong, sexual being, and taking on the violence she experiences, and presumably how others will do so. It’s not WHY I’m watching the series, but it is why I’m talking about it on my blog and with other people who are not watching or fans of the books.[/quote]

      It is really helpful to hear that viewers and fans are “getting it”. Even if most people do not, knowing that there are those that do, really makes a difference.

    • #3023
      Terry Dresbach
      Keymaster

      [quote quote=3006]Then tell him I adore him even more than I do for him having given me a name for my kid. and for giving us Kara. :)[/quote]
      What is your kids name?

      • #3027
        rachely
        Participant

        What is your kids name?

        while I have the sudden urge to say BOOMER! But it is Samuel Anders [A Last Name that is Something tres Quebecois]

        The Anders was decided early on–it’s part of my last name– but we could NOT agree on a first name that would meet each of our requirements (it had to have a Hebrew equivalent, have a nickname, be the kind of name of a person you’d want to have a beer with). We were watching Daybreak and time was running short and we just looked at each other and said “SAMUEL!” figuring that people who name characters probably know what they’re doing. We do sometimes call him Longshot though he has no idea why.

      • #3126
        Terry Dresbach
        Keymaster

        love it.

    • #3025
      beth miller
      Participant

      I don’tknow if this entry is going to make it on this forum but here it goes. I have been reading all of your entries on this site. I’m totally impressed. I do think it is sad that Claire has to basically “make herself well” coming out of the shock of rape. Dougal is in such a hurry again and won’t let Jamie spend time with Claire to help her work through the shock process. I believe it would be the way way men from that time period would view things generally.

      • #3118
        filmfixation
        Participant

        Yes! What i particularly enjoyed was that prior to the best episode ender, (take your hands off my wife) Claire had already saved HERSELF twice! Once by killing the redcoat, and then again by pulling herself out of her shock to survive into the next moment.

    • #3029
      redgiraffe
      Participant

      There’s a line in the review that I find interesting: “…often women were in the story to present opportunities for the man to demonstrate tenderness”. The other side of that I guess is that often women are in the story just to present opportunities for the man to demonstrate brutality, aggression, inadequacy, redemption — it’s all about them.

      But it is a little like when health groups started calling out movie directors for their use of cigarettes to demonstrate that the character was a rebel, had a death wish, had thoroughly enjoyed a romp in bed or whatever. It’s lazy character development through prop not plot, whether you are using a cigarette or a woman.

      Claire could never be a prop. Therefore when Jamie beats her, the character development does not occur because he hits ‘a woman’ but that he believes it is both right and HIS right to curb his wife’s behaviour that way. And then Claire shows him that it isn’t. That’s a much richer and interesting storyline than what we are used to hearing, and it is something that lasts throughout the books — from the nettle scene (which I personally dislike but can perhaps understand) to the occasions where he wants to shake her and she wants to slap him.

      The physicality of the characters is always intense, whether in passion or fury, and part of what makes them so compelling is how they bring each other back from the brink of violence.

      • #3071
        Katie (@bunnums)
        Participant

        [quote quote=3029]
        Claire could never be a prop. Therefore when Jamie beats her, the character development does not occur because he hits ‘a woman’ but that he believes it is both right and HIS right to curb his wife’s behaviour that way. And then Claire shows him that it isn’t. That’s a much richer and interesting storyline than what we are used to hearing, and it is something that lasts throughout the books — from the nettle scene (which I personally dislike but can perhaps understand) to the occasions where he wants to shake her and she wants to slap him.

        The physicality of the characters is always intense, whether in passion or fury, and part of what makes them so compelling is how they bring each other back from the brink of violence.

        [/quote]

        Love your comments here! I think time and time again in these books, both Claire and Jamie are very physical beings. Not just sexually, but they use their bodies and movement and physical space to process information and learning and evolving. The “spanking” scene is among the first examples of this, which is part of what adds to the “shock value” to people who only see what’s happening on the surface. When I re-read it after knowing these characters through all the books, I see it through a different lens.

        Also, media has trained most of the audiences today to not bother looking past what’s happening on the surface. Very little is done that truly explores deeper connections, as Outlander is challenging viewers (and readers) to do.

        Katie

      • #3372
        barbc624
        Participant

        In support of your point I believe at one point Jamie actually says to Claire “You think with your body” or words to that effect.

      • #3128
        Terry Dresbach
        Keymaster

        [quote quote=3029]There’s a line in the review that I find interesting: “…often women were in the story to present opportunities for the man to demonstrate tenderness”. The other side of that I guess is that often women are in the story just to present opportunities for the man to demonstrate brutality, aggression, inadequacy, redemption — it’s all about them.

        But it is a little like when health groups started calling out movie directors for their use of cigarettes to demonstrate that the character was a rebel, had a death wish, had thoroughly enjoyed a romp in bed or whatever. It’s lazy character development through prop not plot, whether you are using a cigarette or a woman.

        Claire could never be a prop. Therefore when Jamie beats her, the character development does not occur because he hits ‘a woman’ but that he believes it is both right and HIS right to curb his wife’s behaviour that way. And then Claire shows him that it isn’t. That’s a much richer and interesting storyline than what we are used to hearing, and it is something that lasts throughout the books — from the nettle scene (which I personally dislike but can perhaps understand) to the occasions where he wants to shake her and she wants to slap him.

        The physicality of the characters is always intense, whether in passion or fury, and part of what makes them so compelling is how they bring each other back from the brink of violence.

        [/quote]
        I agree completely. Again, it is all about context.
        If I may piggyback onto your post for a moment, your mention of the issue of cigarettes onscreen gives me a chance to throw something into the mix that this “issue” has always reminded me of. Onscreen cigarette smoking.
        I am just beyond incensed at the push to remove cigarette smoking from film and television. Even going to the extreme of removing it digitally from classic films. Drives me mad.
        Why must we try to erase anything that we have decided is not okay as a culture? Not TRULY erase, but just pretend it isn’t there because we can’t see it. Like a baby playing peekaboo who thinks that you are not there because their hands are over their own eyes!
        I fervently wish that my great grandchildren could live in a world where rape does not exist and thus was completely out of context to use in any screen drama. But that ail not be accomplished by pretending that it doesn’t happen.
        One of the reasons I was attracted to working in film, was that is was the way to reach as many people as possible with new perspectives, different views and ways to create discussion about issues that impact us as humans. Issues like rape.

    • #3033
      Terry Dresbach
      Keymaster

      [quote quote=3001]Absolutely–history shouldn’t be changed because it makes people uncomfortable. It should teach us and enlighten us and hopefully learn from the good and the bad.[/quote]
      Yes!.

    • #3053
      michellibell
      Participant

      [quote quote=3003]

      <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>rachely wrote:</div>

      I was okay once Jamie said that a man who risked everyone’s life would have been hung or whipped. Now we have equality. Claire should not have any consequences for putting everyone’s lives at risk, because she is a woman. That, to me is just a different flavor of sexism, and it cheapens the equality issue.

      AGREE. And, again in some later book (were they talking about Malva maybe?) he makes a very interesting (from a 21st century perspective) on the difference between “beating” your wife or child and “punishing” them. You didn’t strap people for the joy of doing it (the way Rabbie’s dad did) but because it was justice.

      Interesting, Ron uses that word about Claire’s beating. But Ron is Jamie, to a t.
      [/quote]
      Before I ever read Outlander, I would follow conversations on book boards where women would rage against DG for the punishment scene aka (to them) wife beating, spousal abuse, etc. It intrigued me. Once I picked up the book and read the scene, I just didn’t get the outrage. And Jamie explained it perfectly when he drew the comparison as to what would happen if another man had acted as Claire did.

      As a reader/watcher of GOT and a reader/watcher of Outlander, there is no comparison. GOTs, the book, had plenty of rape, sex, violence… but all was appropriate(?) for the setting. HBO has gone overboard with the “set dressing” as Terry refers to it. I loved the GOT books, but have been taken back with several scenes on HBO. Why do the filmmakers feel the need to do this? I’d love the thought process from women filmmakers like filmfixation and Terry… If the story is quality enough, why throw extra naked women at it?

      • #3068
        martha
        Participant

        Why the throw extra naked women, besides the story?For many and different reasons, that are not, of course, the idea of the writer.In order to make noise, in order to make money, perhaps and some time in order to provoke.That are the times, why I understand, why the call it, “the movie industry” and it has nothing to do with art.As for the GOT, that’s one of the reason, that I cannot say, that I like watching.It’s a little over the edge, for me ,sometimes.

      • #3114
        filmfixation
        Participant

        Outlander the show and DG’s books depict sexual and other violence in a way that adds depth to the characters and story. The fact that the sexual violence is shown in a way that makes me want to look away in horror as much as seeing an arm amputated is entirely appropriate, I think.
        As some others have mentioned, we’re almost numb to violence in society. Rape, sexual violence and the objectification of women are used today to control women, or worse, taken for granted as the way women “should be” in society. The fact that show is taking the trouble to convey the horror of the sexual violence/rapes also deserves attention. So much of what we see in media (advertising, video games, TV and movies) reinforce women as sex objects. It’s easy to see why violence against women, portrayed as objects, continues to be tolerated in society, given the dominance of such images.
        I commend Ron and the whole team for the way Outlander is taking on Claire as a strong, sexual being, and taking on the violence she experiences, and presumably how others will do so. It’s not WHY I’m watching the series, but it is why I’m talking about it on my blog and with other people who are not watching or fans of the books.

        It is really helpful to hear that viewers and fans are “getting it”. Even if most people do not, knowing that there are those that do, really makes a difference.

        Terry & elizlk nail it here. The primary difference for me in the GOT approach and the Outlander approach has to do with narrative structure and world building. GOT, because of the nature of the source material, is interested in building a vast narrative landscape-many stories, many characters, many locations. I dont perceive GOT to be very interested in subjectivity and by that I mean, interested in deeply investing the viewer in the mind of a single character at a time. More often, you are shown how and what the characters think through their interactions, dialogue, actions on screen. Very rarely do we see beyond a brief glimpse or glimmer of who these people are in their core. GOT derives a LOT of narrative suspense from this. It is shocking, surprising, and jarring due in large part to the way in which the show is constructed. We spend such a sort amount of time with each character that there just isnt space to enter fully into their subjectivity. More often than not, even with the “powerful” women of GOT we are not given ample time/space to really access them for all the goodness they have to offer.

        Subjectivity is BIG when examining popular culture through a feminist lens. Why? Well, the history of popular cinema has been unequivocally dominated by the male gaze. When Terry cites other shows that use the female form as furniture-THAT is a very obvious example of the “male gaze” and its as old as cinema itself. Like so many professions, working in cinema was so male dominated, that it makes sense that the predominate visual language we have to show women on screen is a decidedly male approach. The “male gaze” is essentially fetishizing/objectifying the female form and the female experience for the pleasure of the male viewer. Now, when you give a female character subjectivity through various formal means, (Outlander does this with Voice Over, POV shots, and many more) you give her the ability to be MORE than just a body. When other folks have mentioned they liked the wedding episode because it felt “real” well that is due in large part to the creative team behind Outlander allowing us to experience Claire as more than a body-she was a woman, a person, a fully realized character with doubts, fears, desires and a whole range of emotions and intellectual abilities.

        • This reply was modified 7 years, 8 months ago by filmfixation.
        • This reply was modified 7 years, 8 months ago by filmfixation.
        • This reply was modified 7 years, 8 months ago by filmfixation.
      • #3419
        barbc624
        Participant

        Like so many professions, working in cinema was so male dominated, that it makes sense that the predominate visual language we have to show women on screen is a decidedly male approach.

        Unfortunately it still is male dominated. My daughter is also a film maker and this is her ongoing struggle as I am sure it is yours as well.

    • #3104
      michellibell
      Participant

      [quote quote=3068]Why the throw extra naked women, besides the story?For many and different reasons, that are not, of course, the idea of the writer.In order to make noise, in order to make money, perhaps and some time in order to provoke.That are the times, why I understand, why the call it, “the movie industry” and it has nothing to do with art.As for the GOT, that’s one of the reason, that I cannot say, that I like watching.It’s a little over the edge, for me ,sometimes.
      [/quote]
      But, with all of our self-awareness and especially against the backdrop of our knowledge of sexual exploitations, gender equality, etc etc – why do filmmakers feel the need to expose women in an unnatural way? I know our first gut answer is because it drives money, provokes us yada yada, but it becomes a vicious cycle. We want the objectification of women to stop, but we continue to inundate out daughters with visions that continually do so.
      Claire’s nakedness seems natural – especially the bed scene, which we have referenced here. Oberyn Martell’s orgy scene was not needed.

    • #3107
      michellibell
      Participant

      [quote quote=3068]Why the throw extra naked women, besides the story?For many and different reasons, that are not, of course, the idea of the writer.In order to make noise, in order to make money, perhaps and some time in order to provoke.That are the times, why I understand, why the call it, “the movie industry” and it has nothing to do with art.As for the GOT, that’s one of the reason, that I cannot say, that I like watching.It’s a little over the edge, for me ,sometimes.
      [/quote]
      Ok Martha, I’m sorry, it might be the typos but I’m not quite understanding what you are saying. Are you saying that you like to watch GOT because of all of the extra naked women thrown about? That it makes it a little over the edge for you?

      • #3111
        martha
        Participant

        No, that’s exactly the reason, that I’m not watching it.(Sorry for any mistakes, I may have made, but english is not my first language). As for Claire’s nakedness it seems natural,(and all the love scenes of the wedding episode, in my opinion) because of the approach. It is naturally shown, not with anything extra.

    • #3113
      michellibell
      Participant

      Ah, gotcha!

    • #3127
      tiggeros
      Participant

      Does anybody else find it interesting/worrying that this discussion is taking place at the same time as the “He for She” campaign, and awful stuff like this happening http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-life/11127782/Stella-Creasy-Twitter-troll-hell-I-cant-get-the-last-year-of-my-life-back.html ?
      Born in the 80s, I never imagined myself having to be a “feminist” or have TV shows (like Outlander <3) have to be “pushing boundaries” towards equality… (Obviously this concerns much more than just the show, I’ve just really become aware of this in the last few weeks – feminism has become an issue again)
      It is truly refreshing to have a strong female character on TV, who is strong for her character and not her function, to watch. (I’ve been a fan of Claire for about 8 years, so before “seeing” her!)
      AS others have said further up, the portrayals of sex and rape, so far have been very much from a female point of view, which is almost unheard of, and a really great thing. I think, and hope, that the show will continue to portray them, not as gratuitous viewing, but as visual moments that force us to think about ourselves and our society and mainly enable us to empathize with the character to whom it is happening. (hence why so much interest in the BJR -Jamie situation to come, and also the gang rape scene in later series)
      18th century Scotland was not a pretty place to be, and I personally have never been shocked by Jamie’s or Claire’s actions, even when they’ve had to kill. BJR’s actions do shock and revolt, and so they should. It will be very interesting to see how Ron and the writers and director manage to balance that in the final cut…

    • #3129
      Terry Dresbach
      Keymaster

      [quote quote=3053]

      <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>rachely wrote:</div>

      I was okay once Jamie said that a man who risked everyone’s life would have been hung or whipped. Now we have equality. Claire should not have any consequences for putting everyone’s lives at risk, because she is a woman. That, to me is just a different flavor of sexism, and it cheapens the equality issue.

      AGREE. And, again in some later book (were they talking about Malva maybe?) he makes a very interesting (from a 21st century perspective) on the difference between “beating” your wife or child and “punishing” them. You didn’t strap people for the joy of doing it (the way Rabbie’s dad did) but because it was justice.

      Interesting, Ron uses that word about Claire’s beating. But Ron is Jamie, to a t.

      Before I ever read Outlander, I would follow conversations on book boards where women would rage against DG for the punishment scene aka (to them) wife beating, spousal abuse, etc. It intrigued me. Once I picked up the book and read the scene, I just didn’t get the outrage. And Jamie explained it perfectly when he drew the comparison as to what would happen if another man had acted as Claire did.

      As a reader/watcher of GOT and a reader/watcher of Outlander, there is no comparison. GOTs, the book, had plenty of rape, sex, violence… but all was appropriate(?) for the setting. HBO has gone overboard with the “set dressing” as Terry refers to it. I loved the GOT books, but have been taken back with several scenes on HBO. Why do the filmmakers feel the need to do this? I’d love the thought process from women filmmakers like filmfixation and Terry… If the story is quality enough, why throw extra naked women at it?
      [/quote]
      Simple answer, because it sells. If you go around to the various reviews of Outlander and read both review and comments, you will find one consistent theme among those who don’t like it. It’s boring, it’s too slow, takes too long, nothing happens. I think that we have completely desensitized people to films about normal life. They are so used to seeing highly sensational images onscreen that two people in a room talking just seems dull. So when you watch Boardwalk Empire, the two people (lost always men), are often talking in a whorehouse. Not because the whorehouse is relevant to their discussion, but because it makes the scene EXCITING. You don’t just have to manage enough attention to sit there for 5 minutes and watch the scene, you can keep the rush going by watching the parade of necked females in the background. If that rush is not fed, you are bored and turn it off.
      Someone like Ron thinks that is bullshit, and won’t do it. Yes he had a scene in a whorehouse, and there will be others, but they are actually relevant to and part of the story.
      But the difference with Ron is that he always pushes back against the idea that the audience is stupid and will turn your show off if you don’t cater to such base attributes. He has always contended that people will watch if the show is interesting, and that you don’t need anything more than that.
      That is nothing new. It is the way things always were in film and television, before JAWS and Star Wars.
      LOts and lots of screentime with fully clothed people just sitting talking in rooms, without the camera flying all
      over the place, nothing blowing up and no one getting decapitated.
      The thing is that studios and networks have to also believe that is possible. But they are fear based entities and trust neither themselves nor the audience.
      So the finish line constantly moves and what was new is the norm, what was before, never existed and is no longer possible. Like the idea that it is impossible for children to function without computers or cell phones.

      We are the same genetic beings as we always have been, but we act as if we are not the same at all.

      It is also going to be interesting because the overstimulating, high adrenaline entertainment is IMO, very male. I think women are different and want different dories. A show like OL may be a real game changer for television and film. If it has a big audience and is financially successful, then there is a different message about what sells.
      (Don’t cancel STARZ, unless you want to send a very different message)

      That is a bit of a ramble, I hope it makes sense.

      • #3131
        martha
        Participant

        Couldn’t agree more.

      • #3132
        tiggeros
        Participant

        indeed

      • #4508
        barb3928
        Participant

        Your comment really resonated with me because one of the things I adore about the Outlander book series are the long Jamie/Clair conversations and the passages about everyday life. After falling in love with the story and the characters, I truly believe I could read an entire book about life on the Ridge, i.e. Claire’s medical advances, Bree’s experiments,etc. I know it would be a challenge to make that exciting enough for TV, but for me, it enriches an already engaging story.

    • #3133
      Terry Dresbach
      Keymaster

      [quote quote=3112]I was okay once Jamie said that a man who risked everyone’s life would have been hung or whipped. Now we have equality. Claire should not have any consequences for putting everyone’s lives at risk, because she is a woman. That, to me is just a different flavor of sexism, and it cheapens the equality issue.

      Yes, though, just for some fun, we could also look at it a slightly different way…

      True. Equality is vital, essential, and a central thrust of the feminist movement. However, why would we want equal treatment within a patriarchy? Radical feminism posits that equality is one thing, but the true target is to dismantle the system, rather than find an equal place within it. Similar debates have been an undercurrent in the marriage equality movement where some queer folks have struggled between their obvious desire to advocate for full rights (rights that they are entitled to) and their desire to question the very institution of marriage-let alone gender identity in this country.

      Yes, conceivably Claire should be treated equal right? Equality is what we want. However I would argue that what is MORE vital is a questioning of the cultural heritage of wifely property (Scotland is hardly the “outlander” in this ugly truth-this was allll over the world, and still exists in many places) and the use of violence as a means to dispense justice (upon both male and female bodies).

      And finally, this is the reason I stayed with the books, despite some early misgivings at encountering this section. Jaime and Claire function as advocates for a total re-thinking of the marriage relationship. They DO dismantle the patriarchical norm by forging a revolutionary partnership in which they play to their strengths and completely disregard societal norms regarding marriage.

      Perhaps they needed to go through this episode, (Jaime punishing her) to realize that they didnt want to bend to the insidious gendered expectations of the time. Thats the thing about Diana’s books-they take their time in giving you a full picture. Folks will see this happen on the show and struggle with it as I did and the show will have to take its time to show the progression in the relationship.
      [/quote]

      All true. But this is not a story of a woman attempting to dismantle a patriarchal culture, it is the story of a woman trying to survive with in it. It is the story of a very unusual couple living in a patriarchal culture. Different book.
      Isn’t that what we all do, as women, is to try and survive the 21st version of that same culture. I have not had a day in my life where I was not dealing with it one way or another.
      I certainly understand radical movements and the belief that you cannot work within a corrupt system, the system cannot be healed from within and must be dismantled or overthrown. revolution. But to pull that off, you need a majority of the population behind you. The American, French, Russian, and just about every other revolution were not accomplished with a minority of the population. And there has never really been any kind of massive societal “revolution” pulled off for a very small percentage of a population within an existing power culture. Women, people of color and the gay community have only been able to accomplish relatively small inroads into the power structure. How many women are in the senate? How many African Americans, How many open homosexuals?
      We all “live lives of quiet desperation”. Not to sound bleak, but it is all people can do. Try to get on the best they can, find as much joy as possible, get as far as the system will allow them, maintain as much personal power and dignity as they can, and hopefully not get wiped out in the process.
      My mother used to say, “Life is a struggle”. I was horrified at how pessimistic that was. I was 20. Now at 50, I get it.
      She was a radical, a union organizer, a communist in the 50s. She use to laugh at the radicals of the 60’s and say that they had no idea what they were up against and would run home to mom and dad when the revolution REALLY hit home. She was oh, so right.
      That is where I respect Claire and Jamie. They are not stupid, they don’t chase windmills, they live their own lives within their own very strong code of ethics, principals, and well thought out beliefs. They live life on their own terms and compromise for no one.

      • #3136
        filmfixation
        Participant

        AH SO TRUE! Thanks for sharing that bit about your Mom, love that. I am not above saying that theorizing is a safe way to encounter these ideas-living them? Fighting through them? NOT easy. I am by no means on the front lines like some of my colleagues and close friends are.

        Perhaps Jaime and Claire arent actively dismantling the system, but when you think about what Diana’s books have done in terms of reaching millions with this narrative…it has done something. Struck a chord, surely. And with each chord struck, a small chink in the armor forms… I struggle between being a: “well just make the most out of it” and a “every little advance counts!” person-maybe I am both.

        Driving through the north bay on my way to the city this morning I heard that the “Yes Means Yes” bill was passed into law. Not revolutionary, but hard won and desperately necessary!!

        http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2014/09/29/352482932/california-enacts-yes-means-yes-law-defining-sexual-consent

    • #3134
      Terry Dresbach
      Keymaster

      [quote quote=3114]Outlander the show and DG’s books depict sexual and other violence in a way that adds depth to the characters and story. The fact that the sexual violence is shown in a way that makes me want to look away in horror as much as seeing an arm amputated is entirely appropriate, I think.
      As some others have mentioned, we’re almost numb to violence in society. Rape, sexual violence and the objectification of women are used today to control women, or worse, taken for granted as the way women “should be” in society. The fact that show is taking the trouble to convey the horror of the sexual violence/rapes also deserves attention. So much of what we see in media (advertising, video games, TV and movies) reinforce women as sex objects. It’s easy to see why violence against women, portrayed as objects, continues to be tolerated in society, given the dominance of such images.
      I commend Ron and the whole team for the way Outlander is taking on Claire as a strong, sexual being, and taking on the violence she experiences, and presumably how others will do so. It’s not WHY I’m watching the series, but it is why I’m talking about it on my blog and with other people who are not watching or fans of the books.

      It is really helpful to hear that viewers and fans are “getting it”. Even if most people do not, knowing that there are those that do, really makes a difference.

      Terry & elizlk nail it here. The primary difference for me in the GOT approach and the Outlander approach has to do with narrative structure and world building. GOT, because of the nature of the source material, is interested in building a vast narrative landscape-many stories, many characters, many locations. I dont perceive GOT to be very interested in subjectivity and by that I mean, interested in deeply investing the viewer in the mind of a single character at a time. More often, you are shown how and what the characters think through their interactions, dialogue, actions on screen. Very rarely do we see beyond a brief glimpse or glimmer of who these people are in their core. GOT derives a LOT of narrative suspense from this. It is shocking, surprising, and jarring due in large part to the way in which the show is constructed. We spend such a sort amount of time with each character that there just isnt space to enter fully into their subjectivity. More often than not, even with the “powerful” women of GOT we are not given ample time/space to really access them for all the goodness they have to offer.

      Subjectivity is BIG when examining popular culture through a feminist lens. Why? Well, the history of popular cinema has been unequivocally dominated by the male gaze. When Terry cites other shows that use the female form as furniture-THAT is a very obvious example of the “male gaze” and its as old as cinema itself. Like so many professions, working in cinema was so male dominated, that it makes sense that the predominate visual language we have to show women on screen is a decidedly male approach. The “male gaze” is essentially fetishizing/objectifying the female form and the female experience for the pleasure of the male viewer. Now, when you give a female character subjectivity through various formal means, (Outlander does this with Voice Over, POV shots, and many more) you give her the ability to be MORE than just a body. When other folks have mentioned they liked the wedding episode because it felt “real” well that is due in large part to the creative team behind Outlander allowing us to experience Claire as more than a body-she was a woman, a person, a fully realized character with doubts, fears, desires and a whole range of emotions and intellectual abilities.
      [/quote]
      And this is what has always attracted me to the books, and why I push them at Ron. I have always felt that the book was about Claire. HER voice, HER story, HER POV, and I found that so refreshing. Add to that the fact that she is NEVER a victim, no matter what CRAZY shit happens, make it a very empowering story. Even after she loses Jamie ( I have said this a thousand times), she does not curl up into a ball, or become a broken woman, she becomes a frakking SURGEON. You cannot knock this woman down. But show me a woman in this book that isn’t tough as nails. JENNY? GEILLIS< JOCASTA, even LAOGHERIE, say what you will about her, she is no pushover. Strong, powerful women. I was very surprised to find out how many fans could care less about Claire, and focus only on Jamie and on the romance aspects of the story.

      • #3140
        filmfixation
        Participant

        Not mention BRIANNA! Right now I’m reading about her getting a job in 1980’s Scotland as a mother of two. Love how it is playing out with her and Roger-Diana isnt shying away from the fact that there is conflict there between them.

        Love your point about Claire and the level of adoration that skips her in favor of “The King of Men”. The marketing of the show, especially on Social Media skews heavily in favor of “hot pics” of Sam Heughan with Jaime quotations. Its a smart move to lure in non-readers, Sam is so appealing to look at in your costumes with the magnificent Scottish highlands as the backdrop-pretty breathtaking actually. I am not above enjoying them surely…but I cannot wait to see Claire SAVE HIM from Wentworth through her own force of will.

        I wonder if giving him VOs in the second half of the season will just magnify the fixation on the love story and him or if it will have the surprising effect of pointing out to female viewers just how kick ass Claire truly is? hmmm…

      • #3248
        rachely
        Participant

        Here’s a poem for you that has stuck with me since I heard Marge Piercy read it when I was about 13.

        (I don’t want to put the whole poem in here, because, you know, copyright. But there’s a link at the bottom to the whole thing on pbs.org)

      • FOR STRONG WOMEN

        A strong woman is a woman who is straining.
        A strong woman is a woman standing
        on tiptoe and lifting a barbell
        while trying to sing Boris Godunov.
        A strong woman is a woman at work
        cleaning out the cesspool of the ages,
        and while she shovels, she talks about
        how she doesn’t mind crying, it opens
        the ducts of the eyes, and throwing up
        develops the stomach muscles, and
        she goes on shoveling with tears
        in her nose.

        A strong woman is a woman in whose head
        a voice is repeating, I told you so,
        ugly, bad girl, bitch, nag, shrill, witch,
        ballbuster, nobody will ever love you back,
        why aren’t you feminine, why aren’t
        you soft, why aren’t you quiet, why
        aren’t you dead?

        A strong woman is a woman who craves love
        like oxygen or she turns blue choking.
        A strong woman is a woman who loves
        strongly and weeps strongly and is strongly
        terrified and has strong needs. A strong woman is strong
        in words, in action, in connection, in feeling;
        she is not strong as a stone but as a wolf
        suckling her young. Strength is not in her, but she
        enacts it as the wind fills a sail.

        What comforts her is others loving
        her equally for the strength and for the weakness
        from which it issues, lightning from a cloud.
        Lightning stuns. In rain, the clouds disperse.
        Only water of connection remains,
        flowing through us. Strong is what we make
        each other. Until we are all strong together,
        a strong woman is a woman strongly afraid.

        PBS LINK TO FULL POEM

        • This reply was modified 7 years, 8 months ago by rachely.
  • #3263
    shoogieboogie
    Participant

    Thank you Rachely, that was beautiful.

  • #3137
    Terry Dresbach
    Keymaster

    [quote quote=3056]I just started season 4 of BSG. Love it! But it took me until well into season 2 before I thought about the fact that so many of the people in power (President, obviously, but also Kara and Boomer) were women. It just felt normal to me (I have a lot of strong women in my life) so I didn’t really notice at first.

    But what I like even more about BSG is that no one in that world *comments* on the position of women. Because it’s just such the norm that there’s no need to discuss it. I can only hope to live in a world like that.

    Though it would also be nice to include in our world to accept as normal that men can be vulnerable and affectionate and witty (not sidekick-witty). Maybe that’s one of the reason Jamie appeals to me as much as Claire – they both break a lot of gender stereotypes in positive ways.

    Katie
    [/quote]
    Ron Moore is a very unusual man. He has a remarkable view of women.

  • #3138
    Terry Dresbach
    Keymaster

    [quote quote=3136]AH SO TRUE! Thanks for sharing that bit about your Mom, love that. I am not above saying that theorizing is a safe way to encounter these ideas-living them? Fighting through them? NOT easy. I am by no means on the front lines like some of my colleagues and close friends are.

    Perhaps Jaime and Claire arent actively dismantling the system, but when you think about what Diana’s books have done in terms of reaching millions with this narrative…it has done something. Struck a chord, surely. And with each chord struck, a small chink in the armor forms… I struggle between being a: “well just make the most out of it” and a “every little advance counts!” person-maybe I am both.

    Driving through the north bay on my way to the city this morning I heard that the “Yes Means Yes” bill was passed into law. Not revolutionary, but hard won and desperately necessary!!

    http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2014/09/29/352482932/california-enacts-yes-means-yes-law-defining-sexual-consent

    [/quote]
    I cannot accept “every little advance counts”. At the rate we are going my great, great, great granddaughters will not be paid the same wages as men for the same work, and will still be sexualized as soon as they can walk.
    BUT, I know that I have no choice but to do what my mother said she finally had to recognize was all that she could accomplish. To live HER life according to her own values, ethics and principles, and most importantly, to pass those values onto her children. Because her great, great, great grandchildren were going to need them.
    Kind of like Sarah Connor in Terminator. 😉

    • #3142
      filmfixation
      Participant

      YES!I don’t want to accept it either. Even if you don’t choose to have kids (I think I want them but am still flirting with the idea) you can and should connect with other women-especially our young ones. Before making the move to work in film I was a director of after-school programs with the Boys & Girls Clubs and those girls, wow, they need these voices on this forum in their lives. Badly.

  • #3141
    Terry Dresbach
    Keymaster

    The new law seeks both to improve how universities handle rape and sexual assault accusations and to clarify the standards, requiring an “affirmative consent” and stating that consent can’t be given if someone is asleep or incapacitated by drugs or alcohol.

    “Lack of protest or resistance does not mean consent,” the law states, “nor does silence mean consent. Affirmative consent must be ongoing throughout a sexual activity and can be revoked at any time.”

    So, yes this is great. BUT how utterly bizarre is it that we have to actually pass a law that says one cannot give consent to sex if they are asleep or incapacitated by drugs or alcohol.

    That is just so very, very sad.

    But then nice little college girls are getting raped a lot by nice little fraternity boys when they are passed out at frat parties. it is a big problem on campuses. But how very sad that we have to make a law in this day and age to make sure everyone understands that being passed out does not equal consent.

    We’ve come a long way baby.

  • #3143
    Terry Dresbach
    Keymaster

    [quote quote=3140]Not mention BRIANNA! Right now I’m reading about her getting a job in 1980’s Scotland as a mother of two. Love how it is playing out with her and Roger-Diana isnt shying away from the fact that there is conflict there between them.

    Love your point about Claire and the level of adoration that skips her in favor of “The King of Men”. The marketing of the show, especially on Social Media skews heavily in favor of “hot pics” of Sam Heughan with Jaime quotations. Its a smart move to lure in non-readers, Sam is so appealing to look at in your costumes with the magnificent Scottish highlands as the backdrop-pretty breathtaking actually. I am not above enjoying them surely…but I cannot wait to see Claire SAVE HIM from Wentworth through her own force of will.

    I wonder if giving him VOs in the second half of the season will just magnify the fixation on the love story and him or if it will have the surprising effect of pointing out to female viewers just how kick ass Claire truly is? hmmm…
    [/quote]
    I hate DROP THE KILT. But I also know that Starz is very smartly marketing to the hard core book fans, who lust after Jamie.
    They WANT to see the kilt drop.
    But Ron is a very unusual man. Who is the actual discussion of Outlander focusing on, Claire. “Captain, I see land!!

  • #3144
    Terry Dresbach
    Keymaster

    You have not ready MOBY yet, right? That is when I finally come to love Brianna.

    • #3149
      filmfixation
      Participant

      I have not no…oh good!

      She has been my least favorite of the women in the books thus far, but a few things in BOSAA started to change that for me…something about that scene where John Grey watches Jaime watch Brianna and Willie talk…and her instant love for this brother really struck me and I am liking her progression thus far in ECHO.

    • #3194
      elizlk
      Participant

      I thought “the kilt drops” was cute as a way to cue the premiere … but that’s it (other than in the Wedding episode 😉 … and it certainly wasn’t something I was going to share in any professional sphere.

  • #3145
    filmfixation
    Participant

    I know. Its…yeah. Women have always had to fight for EVERYTHING, every last scrap, especially women of color. Even the most obvious, most mundane right has to be codified in the court of law. Talk about working within the system huh?

    But fuck, now the little frat boys who rape passed out girls might actually face a consequence without their trust-funded lawyer pulling the “there was no…no” argument.

    Its absurd.

  • #3146
    Terry Dresbach
    Keymaster

    [quote quote=3142]YES!I don’t want to accept it either. Even if you don’t choose to have kids (I think I want them but am still flirting with the idea) you can and should connect with other women-especially our young ones. Before making the move to work in film I was a director of after-school programs with the Boys & Girls Clubs and those girls, wow, they need these voices on this forum in their lives. Badly. [/quote]
    I was the director of an after school program many years ago. I was also a pre-school teacher and a k-6 teacher.
    A thousand lifetimes ago.

    • #3150
      filmfixation
      Participant

      kindred spirits! once a teacher…

  • #3147
    Katie (@bunnums)
    Participant

    [quote quote=3143]
    I hate DROP THE KILT. But I also know that Starz is very smartly marketing to the hard core book fans, who lust after Jamie.
    They WANT to see the kilt drop.
    But Ron is a very unusual man. Who is the actual discussion of Outlander focusing on, Claire. “Captain, I see land!!
    [/quote]

    Can I admit that I really don’t like the “The Kilt Drops” tagline, either? While Outlander is a sexy story, it’s not a story about sex and that tagline reduces it to sex.

    I did like the “Damsels Don’t Distress” tag, though. But no one seems to want to push that one. Maybe it’s too close to “Damsels, Don’t Distress” (which is how some people did actually interpret it), which implies the “dinna fash, you’ll see it all” attitude rather than championing the Strong Women theme.

    Katie

  • #3148
    Terry Dresbach
    Keymaster

    [quote quote=3147]

    I hate DROP THE KILT. But I also know that Starz is very smartly marketing to the hard core book fans, who lust after Jamie.
    They WANT to see the kilt drop.
    But Ron is a very unusual man. Who is the actual discussion of Outlander focusing on, Claire. “Captain, I see land!!

    Can I admit that I really don’t like the “The Kilt Drops” tagline, either? While Outlander is a sexy story, it’s not a story about sex and that tagline reduces it to sex.

    I did like the “Damsels Don’t Distress” tag, though. But no one seems to want to push that one. Maybe it’s too close to “Damsels, Don’t Distress” (which is how some people did actually interpret it), which implies the “dinna fash, you’ll see it all” attitude rather than championing the Strong Women theme.

    Katie
    [/quote]
    THAT is how people interpreted it??? WOW. I really liked Damsels don’t distress.

  • #3151
    tiggeros
    Participant

    Just remembered – Claire kills a wolf with her bare hands… THAT is amazing.
    And Brianna is definitely a grower – she’s such a powerful woman, that I think it’s difficult to empathize with her… I think her journey once she’s a mother helps readers to become more comfortable with her…; Need to re-read MOBY… I honestly only mostly remember William in that one!

  • #3152
    Terry Dresbach
    Keymaster

    [quote quote=3149]I have not no…oh good!

    She has been my least favorite of the women in the books thus far, but a few things in BOSAA started to change that for me…something about that scene where John Grey watches Jaime watch Brianna and Willie talk…and her instant love for this brother really struck me and I am liking her progression thus far in ECHO.

    [/quote]
    I found her kind of whiny and petulant. The woman always pissed at a man for pretty much NOTHING. But she kicks ass in MOBY. Seriously. Stopping there, but something to look forward to.

    • #3157
      filmfixation
      Participant

      looking forward indeed.

      yeah, Roger is quite the patient man I must say!

    • #3206
      elizlk
      Participant

      I wonder if Brianna is suffering by comparison with what we’re used to from Claire? After all, when we met Claire, she was 7 years older and with far more life experience (WWII nurse, orphaned & travels with Uncle Lamb, etc.) than Brianna, who is just 20 and was raised as the apple of her daddy’s eye. She was also raised by Claire, with a strong female role model without realizing how hard it was to achieve that level of accomplishment.
      I think she gained my respect when she chose to take the journey … and then when she dealt with her rape and aftermath. She’s also a survivor, but has come to the past from a much different time and situation in the future than Claire did.
      She is also extraordinarily patient with Roger when he needs it …..
      But yes, Diana Gabaldon writes extraordinarily strong characters – men and women.

    • #3209
      rachely
      Participant

      Do you know I FINALLY did the math and I’m pretty sure that Marsaili is 27ish at the end of MOBY, same age as Claire at the BEGINNING of the whole thing. She has had 5 kids by that point and been married for 12 years as opposed to Claire. CRAZY PANTS.

  • #3153
    filmfixation
    Participant

    Yeah me too! Wow.

    I mean if one more journalist or even fan asks Sam whats under his kilt…

    REALLY?!? Women. His penis. That is what is under his kilt. Along with legs, thighs, and all the other necessary male anatomy. Ugh.

  • #3154
    Terry Dresbach
    Keymaster

    [quote quote=3151]Just remembered – Claire kills a wolf with her bare hands… THAT is amazing.
    And Brianna is definitely a grower – she’s such a powerful woman, that I think it’s difficult to empathize with her… I think her journey once she’s a mother helps readers to become more comfortable with her…; Need to re-read MOBY… I honestly only mostly remember William in that one! [/quote]

    I really ended up liking her a lot. William, not so much. Isn’t it funny how we all have our different responses?

    • #3172
      rachely
      Participant

      William drives me batshit crazy.

      Also I would like to add to the conversation that I am blissfully happy to see a show that has such strong leads and such as strong COUPLE. That doesn’t mean I won’t enjoy Sam’s ass any time it shows up. 🙂

    • #3204
      elizlk
      Participant

      I don’t like William much right now, but I do feel sorry for him – his whole world has been upended (his father isn’t who he thought, he’s illegitimate, he can’t fight, he lost his “girl” to Ian …) Of course, he’s reacting like a teenage boy, and I don’t even like the teenage boys I love much at that stage.

  • #3155
    Katie (@bunnums)
    Participant

    [quote quote=3148]`
    THAT is how people interpreted it??? WOW. I really liked Damsels don’t distress.
    [/quote]

    I know, right? Not only does that interpretation miss the whole point, but it’s grammatically incorrect! (I write for a living – I have an unhealthy issue with grammar. LOL!) But I saw that interpretation, and the confusion over how to read those three words, discussed many times in the various fan groups. It was definitely a *shaking my head* moment for me.

    This whole discussion has been fascinating, and is making me realize just how unusual my primary role models (my mom and dad, in the 70s, 80s, and 90s) were to me. My mother continues to amaze me with her strength in her new normal since my dad (and her true love) passed away 7 years ago.

    Katie

  • #3156
    Terry Dresbach
    Keymaster

    [quote quote=3153]Yeah me too! Wow.

    I mean if one more journalist or even fan asks Sam whats under his kilt…

    REALLY?!? Women. His penis. That is what is under his kilt. Along with legs, thighs, and all the other necessary male anatomy. Ugh.
    [/quote]
    They ask me Ron that, they even asked me that. I HATE that question. I say, “well I don’t usually ask people if they are wearing underwear or not.”
    Believe it or not they asked me recently if I have to fit Sam’s modest patch for sex scenes. I just want to hang up.

    • #3159
      filmfixation
      Participant

      i’d pay to see you do that.

  • #3158
    Terry Dresbach
    Keymaster

    [quote quote=3155]

    `
    THAT is how people interpreted it??? WOW. I really liked Damsels don’t distress.

    I know, right? Not only does that interpretation miss the whole point, but it’s grammatically incorrect! (I write for a living – I have an unhealthy issue with grammar. LOL!) But I saw that interpretation, and the confusion over how to read those three words, discussed many times in the various fan groups. It was definitely a *shaking my head* moment for me.

    This whole discussion has been fascinating, and is making me realize just how unusual my primary role models (my mom and dad, in the 70s, 80s, and 90s) were to me. My mother continues to amaze me with her strength in her new normal since my dad (and her true love) passed away 7 years ago.

    Katie
    [/quote]

    I had to read it a couple of times to understand how they could get that interpretation. I love “an unhealthy relationship with grammar”!! LOL
    I love this discussion. This is what a forum is all about, for me.
    Let’s make more of these kinds of threads!!!!!

    • #3160
      filmfixation
      Participant

      Loving this too. Feel like I am exercising a part of my soul I dont give voice to often enough. Thanks women!

  • #3161
    Terry Dresbach
    Keymaster

    Have any of you watch the Vikings??? Great portrayal of women on that show. Really amazing. GREAT show.

    • #3162
      filmfixation
      Participant

      No! I will definitely check it out!

      Right now I’m working my way through Masters of Sex…

    • #3294
      Hope
      Participant

      I have to say I haven’t watched TV consistently for many decades. Outlander is one of the shows that has brought me back. And the Good Wife. Now I’ve been going through Ron’s other productions; now working through Battlestar Galactica. (Also a blog I like went through Leverage, analyzing the arcs of the stories, which was so fun to do.) I read three volumes of GOT as they first came out, got sickened by the violence and was not taken by the characters. I do not understand its popularity among women as a TV series, although a lot of women I respect do enjoy it. I wonder if it’s because of the dearth of better things? I am loving hearing the opinions here, I actually feel that I have found a home. I’ve been on other Outlander blogs and it is too much about Jamie as a handsome and virile man and too much nitpicking about details. Here you are all talking about the things I care about and openly and with humor. Thank goodness!
      Hope

    • #3165
      Katie (@bunnums)
      Participant

      I really like Vikings. Engaging stories, great characters, and strong women. I really like the emphasis on the culture of the community and how it infuses every part of their lives.

      I do find myself disturbed by the blood and gore. I can’t comment on whether or not it’s historically accurate, though I suspect it is. And the violence is treated with an odd sort of respect – it’s not there just to add violence for the sake of viewers. And after the discussions here, I think I’m glad I’m not desensitized to it. 😉

      Terry, thank you for providing the space to have these discussions!

      Katie

    • #3220
      shillelagh
      Participant

      Yesss it’s so good. And as much as I love Ragnar & the way all of the friendships are portrayed, I kind of secretly want it to become the Lagertha show. It’s not just her, though, I feel like the respect that they give all of the characters and the overall tone is pretty unique.

    • #3635
      sonyakhanum
      Participant

      Vikings is an amazing show! I have the biggest crush on Lagertha, such an amazing character.

  • #3163
    Terry Dresbach
    Keymaster

    [quote quote=3160]Loving this too. Feel like I am exercising a part of my soul I dont give voice to often enough. Thanks women! [/quote]
    Yes, thank all of you. Nice release.
    Well, this is what this board should be. It IS a female centric show, it should have a female-centric forum. I dealt with a lot of hostile male BSG old show fans. Some really nasty stuff. But for the most part this is a very refreshing fan base, because it is some. They want to love the show, want to support it and have been very welcoming. It is exciting.
    I think this can be a very interesting space.

    • #3174
      rachely
      Participant

      My dad was an English prof before he died. He used to teach a class on women heroes in film and fiction. Along with whatever it was they read, he showed them Aliens and BSG 🙂

      My dad would have had something to say to those asshole “fans”.

  • #3166
    Terry Dresbach
    Keymaster

    [quote quote=3162]No! I will definitely check it out!

    Right now I’m working my way through Masters of Sex…
    [/quote]
    I like that show, in a sexually repressed 50’s kind of way. But for kick as, beautiful, adrenaline pumping super hero women (and very, very hot men), watch The Vikings.

    • #3168
      filmfixation
      Participant

      yes to all of that. Sign me up! History channel, wow, somehow missed this one!

  • #3167
    Terry Dresbach
    Keymaster

    [quote quote=3165]I really like Vikings. Engaging stories, great characters, and strong women. I really like the emphasis on the culture of the community and how it infuses every part of their lives.

    I do find myself disturbed by the blood and gore. I can’t comment on whether or not it’s historically accurate, though I suspect it is. And the violence is treated with an odd sort of respect – it’s not there just to add violence for the sake of viewers. And after the discussions here, I think I’m glad I’m not desensitized to it. ;-)

    Terry, thank you for providing the space to have these discussions!

    Katie
    [/quote]

    It is violent, but again, it does not feel gratuitous or out of context. It feels believable, a keyword, Ron always says is essential. One of the most interesting things is that there is NO nudity. NONE. Not ONE naked breast. I have argued with people who have watch the entire show, who insist there is. THAT is groundbreaking, because the show is so damned sexy with no naked female furniture. It proves that sexy has nothing to do with naked flesh, and that EROTIC can be portrayed fully clothed.

    Love that show. Watched all three seasons twice. On my third viewing.

    • #3169
      filmfixation
      Participant

      stop the presses! No BOOBS!?! And its gone on to a third season-wow…imagine that huh? Love it.

    • #3679
      barbc624
      Participant

      So now maybe I have something I can watch during the wait for the rest of Outlander. I’m going to check it out this weekend. 🙂

  • #3170
    Terry Dresbach
    Keymaster

    [quote quote=3169]stop the presses! No BOOBS!?! And its gone on to a third season-wow…imagine that huh? Love it.[/quote]No boobs. Female warriors and I cannot remember any whore houses.

    • #3171
      Katie (@bunnums)
      Participant

      OK, now I want to start another thread to discuss Vikings so I don’t post any spoilers here! Maybe I’ll do that later tonight after I get my kids tucked into bed.

      Katie

  • #3173
    Terry Dresbach
    Keymaster

    PLEASE DO!!!!!!

  • #3175
    filmfixation
    Participant

    oh man, i’ll have to get on those seasons! Hopefully the first few seasons are on Hulu?

    Reading up on takes on the show and its amazing to hear about it from a feminist point of view and then this…
    http://www.tv.com/shows/vikings/community/post/vikings-10-reasons-to-watch-139288144836/

  • #3176
    Terry Dresbach
    Keymaster

    [quote quote=3172]William drives me batshit crazy.

    Also I would like to add to the conversation that I am blissfully happy to see a show that has such strong leads and such as strong COUPLE. That doesn’t mean I won’t enjoy Sam’s ass any time it shows up. :)
    [/quote]

    LOL. I have no problem with that, because of the first sentence 😉
    I lust mightily after Ragnar on Vikings, so I get it. I have been known to rewind it a few times, and have done some serious googling of whateverhisnameis, the actor who plays him. Damn, that is my cup of tea!

  • #3177
    Terry Dresbach
    Keymaster

    [quote quote=3174]My dad was an English prof before he died. He used to teach a class on women heroes in film and fiction. Along with whatever it was they read, he showed them Aliens and BSG :)

    My dad would have had something to say to those asshole “fans”.
    [/quote]

    REALLY?????? BSG? Oh, I love that. He sounds amazing.

    • #3184
      seddi
      Participant

      Tavis Fimmel is Ragnar….love looking at him too.

    • #4521
      rachely
      Participant

      TERMINATOR.

      It only took me a month to remember what the other media they watched was in dad’s class.

  • #3178
    filmfixation
    Participant

    lust is good! being attracted to male characters (or female if that is your persuasion) is totally great, and we should derive sexual pleasure from shows that feature sex- circling back to Ryan’s article though, its rare to see sex that we (us women here) can actually recognize and then proceed to feel turned on by.

    • #3190
      rachely
      Participant

      My sister, who is a lesbian, pointed out that Claire and Jamie haven’t run across any lesbians. She’s right, right? There’s no I remember… though my theory was that women who were lesbians often lived together as “companions” (or so I learned in Women Studies 101) and maybe they don’t merit discussion among J&C et al.?

      (Hmmm, my spell checker seems to have just decided to take a holiday: everyone forgive me in advance)

    • #3192
      filmfixation
      Participant

      have you read Breath of Snow and Ashes? Claire definitely crosses paths with a lesbian in that one! But on the whole yes, not as many queer women in the books.

      • This reply was modified 7 years, 8 months ago by filmfixation.
    • #3195
      rachely
      Participant

      Yeah, like 6 times… how did I miss this?!!? who is it? how did I miss this?! I feel totally dumb!

      (Speaking of which, since homophobia is un-PC are people going to complain that Jamie is utterly and unapologetically homophobic when it comes to Lord John?)

    • #3197
      filmfixation
      Participant

      When she is briefly in prison in the wake of the Malva Christie witch hunt…I forget the character’s name…Do you think you can characterize Jaimie’s behavior towards Lord John as strictly homophobic? I think his attitude is a bit more complicated than that, though I can see why you would feel so.

    • #3199
      elizlk
      Participant

      Right … that was a funny character 😉

    • #3200
      rachely
      Participant

      OH!! Now I remember!

      I don’t think he’s particularly homophobic–any more than any man i 177whatever ESPECIALLY who’s been through what he’s been through, but I was sort of speaking hypothetically for the people who think that Ron et al should take out thrashings and rapes from the series.

      Poor Jamie, so HARD to have everyone in love with you 😉

    • #3203
      filmfixation
      Participant

      Totally. Although I do think a forum on the treatment of queer characters in the book warrants some attention. Its very interesting. Although I havent read the Lord John books…

    • #3208
      elizlk
      Participant

      You’ll want to read the Lord John books …. they include gay sex, and are just darn good, as well.

    • #3210
      filmfixation
      Participant

      Good to know and thanks for sharing your thoughts on the Jaime-Claire punishment scene. Love hearing the range of reactions.

    • #3213
      rachely
      Participant

      I’ve only read the ones with Jamie in them…I admit it.

    • #3201
      rachely
      Participant

      I think I must remember her more for the fact that Claire thinks she’s being kind telling the governor’s man that Claire was a forgerer not a murderer and then it turning out that forgery was an automatic hanging offense while murder wasn’t!

    • #3198
      elizlk
      Participant

      I missed it, too … or at least can’t recall it … or wait, one of the backcountry characters?

      And, undoubtedly there will be blowback that Jamie is homophobic …. but folks who’ve read the books and see the friendship develop, and read the Lord John books, will have the context …

      BTW – on earlier posts, I never had the big reaction to the spanking scene that I’ve been hearing about. I am sure in part because I was punished as a child – had to go get the wooden spoon from the kitchen when I’d done something deliberately disobedient. Very reminiscent of Jamie and Brian …. and I was never beaten.

  • #3180
    Terry Dresbach
    Keymaster

    [quote quote=3175]oh man, i’ll have to get on those seasons! Hopefully the first few seasons are on Hulu?

    Reading up on takes on the show and its amazing to hear about it from a feminist point of view and then this…

    http://www.tv.com/shows/vikings/community/post/vikings-10-reasons-to-watch-139288144836/

    [/quote]

  • #3211
    HarriettEl
    Participant

    I had to stop what I was doing to get back into this discussion. So many interesting topics have emerged. It’s hard to find women to discuss this sort of thing. In reference to a previous comment, I have to say I think women have gone backwards or are being forced backwards (however you want to word it). If you look at a magazines, for example Maxim, or many shows, and musical productions, I dismayed by how women are portrayed and why this is happening. I have some theories, but I’d love to hear your thoughts. I was wondering also what you all think about the

      50 Shades of Gray

    phenomenom. Personally I have not read the books nor do I plan to; however, I do know the storyline. I am amazed that their is such a huge cross-section of people that like these books. I know several very conservative women who would normally not watch an R rated film, but are nuts about these books.

    On another note, (trying to catch up–was having network issues) I love the Vikings tv show and not just because I am Danish. I try to point out to people that Scandinavian women decided who they wanted to marry and also allowed divorce. Our court system is based on Scandinavian proceedings. (I’m trying to differentiate between Viking raiders and general Scandinavian people of that era.) I’d love to discuss on another thread.

    Back to Outlander–I always loved Brianna. I didn’t know readers had a problem with her until a discussion on another forum. I’m very much looking forward to her portrayal on the show. I think of her as forward-thinking, independent, and outspoken like her mother. One of the reasons I started getting into sci-fi was because there are so many strong female roles. When I saw my husband watching BSG and that Starbuck was female, I was like wait a minute, I can get into this. Sara Conner also. I don’t understand why people freak out about the word “feminism.”

    I love the “under the kilt” discussion. As I understand from the book, underwear didn’t really exist back then, so wouldn’t the redcoats not have anything under their pants either? I was also surprised to read on this forum that people are watching the show for the eye-candy. Not that I don’t like a good looking Scot–my husband being one–but the show is about Claire and how her insertion in the past affects other people’s lives. I would like to see an interview with Caitriona about her role and how Claire is perceived. Thanks for reading!

  • #3214
    4nikikelly
    Participant

    So I just read this entire thread top to bottom. It was like sliding around a plate of spaghetti and I love all the place it went. When this topic came up, about Rape, and how this show would deal with it, my thoughts immediately went to Jamie’s. When I read this book in my early twenties most of my friends had been recipients of unwanted male advances and an unfortunate handful of us were already card carrying members of the sexually assaulted club. ugh. So Claire’s attempted rapes just seemed, par for the course. But Jamie’s truly shocked me. Now that I am older I realize that male rape happens and it is a “shame shit storm” like no other.
    Author Brene Brown wrote this fascinating book on Vulnerability and this passage seemed apropos
    “Why do you think many guys struggle with fully opening up?
    I think there is still some Barbie and John Wayne stuff lingering in all of us. The story I tell that gets the biggest reaction from the guys in my audiences is when a man approached me after a lecture I gave on shame to say, “My wife and daughters…they’d rather see me die on top of my white horse than watch me fall off. You say you want us to be vulnerable and real, but c’mon. You can’t stand it. It makes you sick to see us like that.”

    I think thats why Im half curious, half anxious about the upcoming episodes. The spanking didn’t bother me, but seeing strong Jamie broken like that. The way he was at the abbey. It made me squirm. If that makes any sense.

    • #3302
      Hope
      Participant

      I was so curious about why 50 shades of Gray was so popular that I actually bought a used copy to read. (I’ve done this in the past to expose my children to Ayn Rand; if you buy used, the money doesn’t go back to the author or the Ayn Rand Institute.) It was boring and not erotic. I think there is not enough real erotica out there available to women. And there does seem to be a trend for the alpha male making the female submit in more than one genre. As a woman, I enjoy an manly man, but not if that’s the only facet he owns.

  • #3223
    Debbie Dake
    Participant

    I just started Brene Brown’s book too after listening to her TED talks. It’s really hard to deliberately make yourself vulnerable, isn’t it? Reading how Jamie handled his brutalization by BJR was so painful, and I know already that I’ll be mesmerized with the way Sam handles those scenes. They will be like no other on television today. As were the love scenes in the wedding episode.

    ~ Debbie

    • #3231
      barbc624
      Participant

      I love this topic! There is so much good stuff in the replies here, that I don’t even know where to start.But I will try to organize my thoughts on what has been said here.

      1. BJR – I believe he is an extremely damaged man. A sociopath and/or sadist, but I don’t know if it is by birth or by experience or a combination of both. I do believe that he is capable of love to some extent – witness his care and concern for his younger brother to the extent of asking Claire (of all people) to assist Alex and his acceptance of being in the same room with both Claire and Jamie in order to make his brother happy. I don’t condone what he is in any way, or forget that he is very dangerous but I have to believe that inside him there is some tiny tiny tiny speck of humanity. We haven’t learned exactly what happened in the end between him and Jamie at Culloden since Jamie has suppressed his memories of that day, but I hope that Diana is going to address that before the end of the series so I can see if I am right or if he is indeed pure evil.

      2. The whole rape controversy. Much as I hate to say it, rape is is a fact of not only 18th century life but of the present day. The difference being that we try to sweep it under the rug and pretend we are so much better than people were in the past. Look at the obscene numbers of rapes going on daily on college campuses and the attempt by schools to pretend they weren’t happening, until they are now being forced to deal because of social media attention being brought to bear on them.

      Outlander depicts rape as a brutal and violent act. It doesn’t pretty it up and make it exciting. Even though I knew what was going to happen with the attempted rape of Claire in Episode 8 it was a horrific scene to watch. I loved that it was uncomfortable and, that in no way did it glorify the act of rape. As someone here said, the focus was on Claire and not on the would be rapist and it stayed on Claire in the aftermath. One of the reasons I don’t really like GoT is the constant background nudity, rape and violence against women presented as background.There is no empathy or horror in it because the women are nothing more than props. It serves to desensitize the viewer and it also serves to legitimize rape, as do many current movies and tv shows.

      Outlander gets up in our face and forces us to see rape as the act of violence that it is. I think that is really what is making some people uncomfortable. It’s not the number of rapes (or near rapes) on the show it’s the reality of how they are depicted and I think it hits too close to home for some. It doesn’t allow us to look through our rose colored glasses. We all want to think that we live in a safe and civilized world, but as women we all know that we really don’t. I remember the twitter campaign a few months back where, after several women came out with stories about being sexually harassed at Comic conventions, some men started the hashtag #butnotallmen complaining that men were being painted with too broad a brush. In response, a women answered with the hashtag #yesallwomen where women tweeted their everyday experiences with harassment, from the simple ones of men ogling them on the street, to actual verbal and physical harassment, to the horrific ones of physical assault and rape. It was hard to see all of the responses from so many women ranging from young teens to women on the far side of 50. What was even worse was seeing how so many of us women accept such things as a normal fact of life and we deal with them and move on rather than pushing to make it unacceptable. I am guilty of that myself.

      But in order to end this culture of rape and women as sexual objects, we need to bring it into the light of day and I commend Ron for not shying away from doing so. It would be easy to cop out and back off from actually showing the hard stuff. And it would be easy not to watch (or read) it. But I believe that popular culture can be a powerful agent of change when its creators have the courage to go against the mainstream and make the hard choices to show things in all their real ugliness. I don’t look forward to seeing what will be coming at the end of the season. I had a hard time reading it, and I know I will have a hard time seeing it, but if Outlander is to be true to the spirit of the books it does need to go there and am I happy to know you all will be doing so. Just remember that when the shit storm hits, there are many fans who will be standing with you and supporting you. If we don’t admit to the bad things we do to each other as a part of our culture we will never change them.

      3. I love Claire as a character. Kelly Sue DeConnick (comic book writer and a damn good one)spoke at a panel I attended and I loved
      her theory of female agency and the”sexy lamp”. Essentially she said that if you can take a woman out of a scene and replace her with a sexy lamp without losing anything then, she has no agency. However,if the sexy lamp doesn’t cut it and you need that woman speaking and acting you have succeeded in writing that strong woman character. By that yardstick Claire definitely does have agency most of the time. In the wedding night scenes Claire as an active participant is essential – no lamp, no matter how sexy, could replace Claire/Catriona in that scene.

      4. The wedding night sex. Mostly I cringe when I see sex in movies or on TV; it just seems so fake. I loved the wedding night though because it was so real. The awkwardness of two people (one of them a virgin) being pretty much forced into sex for reasons other than actual love or desire came across so well and so true to life. The subsequent progression from becoming comfortable with each other,to actually wanting each other, and finally to expressing the caring for each other that was taking root was beautiful. Sam and Catriona were amazing in the way they portrayed all of that with so few words. (I do believe that having a woman writer and a woman director were a big part of that.) Jamie and Claire have touched so many people because they have a love that is deeply rooted in love and respect for each other,and one that endures through some pretty horrible events and across centuries. The wedding night scene laid the foundation for that love that is to come.

      5. The spanking. I have never understood all the furor over this. Despite what some say, Jamie was acting as a product of his time and culture. He did what he had been brought up to do. We may not like historical attitudes but we need to acknowledge them and learn from them, not pretend that history did not happen or we will be doomed to repeat it.

      If Jamie had continued to beat Claire throughout the books I probably would have gotten disgusted and put them down. But (and here we go with the female agency again), Claire does not let him. She pulls her knife on him (which is symbolic because we know he could take easily it away from her) and lets him know in no uncertain terms that he’s had his one pass. He’s not getting another one.And Jamie, being Jamie, is able to accept that. He even swears an oath to Claire that he will never lay a hand on her again. Today we don’t take oaths or promises very seriously (and maybe that’s the crux of the problem some readers have with this scene because they don’t understand the significance of what Jamie has done>), but in the 18th century oaths were something you didn’t break on pain of death. By doing what he does, Jamie is putting Claire right up there with a clan laird. This scene to me is the turning point of their relationship. It’s where they truly do become two against the world, and it’s the underpinning that enables their relationship to endure through the years.

      So that’s what I’ve got. I look forward to the second half and the good and bad that is to come.

    • #3250
      4nikikelly
      Participant

      Yes, yes, yes. Especially #5. And I love the sexy lamp theory. So interesting.

    • #3272
      donnakay
      Participant

      Just read this on another discussion, but think it explains some of the deeper meaning:http://jmrichards.tumblr.com/post/94371737603/outlanders-infamous-spanking-scene-yes-again

    • #3287
      barbc624
      Participant

      Pretty much what I said but she goes into more detail which should be helpful to those who can’t get past the scene. Nice find

    • #3289
      filmfixation
      Participant

      thank you for posting! reading it now.

    • #3290
      rachely
      Participant

      OOo, that is a good one. And also gives me something to think about with the ‘return to Leoch’ sex scene. I never really viewed it as a rape because Claire didn’t, but it still rankled.

    • #3292
      filmfixation
      Participant

      YES! Now THAT is an awesome example of a feminist response. We should grapple with it! We should struggle with it! I agree with all of it.

    • #3303
      Hope
      Participant

      I had a similar feeling to you about the rape scenes in Outlander episode 08. I thought they were very well done, and showing the first rape in slow motion from Claire’s perspective was brilliant. When really dramatic things happen to us, there is often a sense of being out of normal time. And it gave us a chance to follow her through all her different more or less simultaneous thoughts.

    • #3304
      filmfixation
      Participant

      exactly. Thats the beauty of the medium-so many formal choices you can make!!

  • #3247
    rachely
    Participant

    We haven’t learned exactly what happened in the end between him and Jamie at Culloden since Jamie has suppressed his memories of that day, but I hope that Diana is going to address that before the end of the series so I can see if I am right or if he is indeed pure evil.

    Didn’t Jamie finally realize that Murtagh killed BJR? Or did I totally imagine that? (And let’s all pause here and say a prayer of thanksgiving to Duncan LaCroix’s eyebrows, shall we?)

    (Your post was full of interesting tidbits, at this point I have not had enough coffee to chunter on anything but Duncan’s eyebrows)

    • #3267
      barbc624
      Participant

      Did he remember exactly or did he just have a vague memory of Murtagh appearing behind Jack? Sometimes it’s hard to keep everything straight being as the books average oh, only a mere 800 pages each! ;). It’s been a while since I read that part. I still find it curious how Jack and Jamie found each other in the complete chaos of Culloden.

  • #3251
    bets18
    Participant

    –I had a reaction to the attempted-rape scene that hasn’t happened before. Along with cringing, as usual, watching such a scene, my legs instantly clamped shut of their own volition. Rewatching the episode the next day, it happened again without conscious thought. It wasn’t the most brutal or the most upsetting thing I’ve seen, but the perspective and presentation (and Caitriona’s performance) were obviously very effective.

    The one with Jack… I realize that Claire being bent over the table and the very close shot from behind showed just how vulnerable she was, but to me, that brief backside closeup was too much. It felt gratuitous and exploitative. Having her bodice torn open, her hands tied behind her, bent over and skirts lifted, and Jack holding the knife to her breast were more than awful enough. That brief closeup was more like a typical male-gaze shot.

    –From reading other forums, I’ve seen that some of the criticism of how much Frank’s presence has been increased (particularly in 108) is due to a perception that Jamie hasn’t been developed enough yet as a full character on the show. He’s been this sort of earnest guy attracted to Claire who now is in the throes of his first love, but is that enough for her to choose to stay with him? A lot of their ongoing conversation as a couple hasn’t occurred (at least not yet), and now all these big events will be happening that might preclude or reduce it. In their criticism, hotness is definitely not enough reason for her to stay. Non-book readers obviously don’t have the full perspective, and some book readers worry that the strapping scene will make it harder for them to accept Claire’s choice to stay in 1743 (and they want viewers to stick around to see the full perspective).

    –I loved Maureen Ryan’s article, and even though it’s sad that The Wedding is considered groundbreaking at this point, I do feel that a tide has shifted in a larger sense regarding women/feminism. The slowness of change and the fact that it often looks worse in early stages is frustrating, but it’s there. For example, all those attempts at sickeningly misogynistic abortion laws requiring internal sonograms and other terrible elements were loudly denounced, and at least some were defeated (don’t have the facts at my fingertips). It felt at first like things were going horribly backward when they all started cropping up, but then it seemed like lancing something ugly and exposing it to light; also, some “unenlightened” men lost their political positions due to their views. In Mississippi (or Alabama?) a strict law that would have closed nearly all clinics in the state was defeated. It is sad to have to pass a law to say that consent can’t be given while unconscious, but… it is a way to teach boys/young men that they are not entitled to do whatever they like. We have anti-discrimination and civil-rights laws that are also sad in the necessity but have helped change views over time. There is still a long way to go, to be sure, but I do feel that real change is happening – even worldwide (e.g. Malala’s movement) – and that it’s gaining momentum. The bad always gets more attention for being so loud and awful.

    Of course, then there’s Hollywood… The view of an actress’ F***-ability determining whether she ought to be hired is outrageous; the gender-unequal display of bodies and the excessive display of women is upsetting; and the fact that all women are supposed to look like porn stars with no pubic hair is more than disturbing since it’s a child’s appearance. But again, there are bright spots, Mr. Moore among them. (I could give a few positive examples on the “hair issue” alone! LOL!)

    –Re: Under the kilt questions – yeah, it’s pretty rude and unoriginal; they’ve asked others besides Sam as well. As for potential full-frontal — well, I can understand interest in terms of wanting equal exposure, so to speak, and how rare full male nudity is comparably, but if it happens, I rather hope it isn’t in the expected way — that it’s not a romantic context. The Wedding was so well done, it just wasn’t necessary. In the meadow in Both Sides Now, they’re both almost fully clothed, and that first moment of joining — totally effective without explicit visuals. — One way that I could believe it as “valid” would be in the abbey. As a comparison, in the movie Eastern Promises, Viggo Mortensen’s character fights naked, but it’s not about leering at him. His life is at stake, and it conveys incredible vulnerability even as he’s doing very violent things. Here, it could be appropriate in the slightly similar context in the abbey, but even then, it’s not entirely necessary. Just … I hope that it’s not ever a case of full-frontal on Caitriona but not Sam, in any context. While mostly not gratuitous, she has been exposed quite a bit already.

    • #3282
      filmfixation
      Participant

      Completely agree re: full frontal male nudity. The penis is held as this sacred, private and special piece of anatomy whereas the entire female form is up for grabs? No.

      Perhaps in that wonderful section towards the end of the book where Jaime walk out naked in the snow, I love that. The opportunity for striking visuals there is exciting!!

  • #3266
    michellibell
    Participant

    [quote quote=3129]

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>michellibell wrote:</div>

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Terry Dresbach wrote:</div>

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>rachely wrote:</div>

    I was okay once Jamie said that a man who risked everyone’s life would have been hung or whipped. Now we have equality. Claire should not have any consequences for putting everyone’s lives at risk, because she is a woman. That, to me is just a different flavor of sexism, and it cheapens the equality issue.

    AGREE. And, again in some later book (were they talking about Malva maybe?) he makes a very interesting (from a 21st century perspective) on the difference between “beating” your wife or child and “punishing” them. You didn’t strap people for the joy of doing it (the way Rabbie’s dad did) but because it was justice.

    Interesting, Ron uses that word about Claire’s beating. But Ron is Jamie, to a t.

    Before I ever read Outlander, I would follow conversations on book boards where women would rage against DG for the punishment scene aka (to them) wife beating, spousal abuse, etc. It intrigued me. Once I picked up the book and read the scene, I just didn’t get the outrage. And Jamie explained it perfectly when he drew the comparison as to what would happen if another man had acted as Claire did.

    As a reader/watcher of GOT and a reader/watcher of Outlander, there is no comparison. GOTs, the book, had plenty of rape, sex, violence… but all was appropriate(?) for the setting. HBO has gone overboard with the “set dressing” as Terry refers to it. I loved the GOT books, but have been taken back with several scenes on HBO. Why do the filmmakers feel the need to do this? I’d love the thought process from women filmmakers like filmfixation and Terry… If the story is quality enough, why throw extra naked women at it?

    Simple answer, because it sells. If you go around to the various reviews of Outlander and read both review and comments, you will find one consistent theme among those who don’t like it. It’s boring, it’s too slow, takes too long, nothing happens. I think that we have completely desensitized people to films about normal life. They are so used to seeing highly sensational images onscreen that two people in a room talking just seems dull. So when you watch Boardwalk Empire, the two people (lost always men), are often talking in a whorehouse. Not because the whorehouse is relevant to their discussion, but because it makes the scene EXCITING. You don’t just have to manage enough attention to sit there for 5 minutes and watch the scene, you can keep the rush going by watching the parade of necked females in the background. If that rush is not fed, you are bored and turn it off.
    Someone like Ron thinks that is bullshit, and won’t do it. Yes he had a scene in a whorehouse, and there will be others, but they are actually relevant to and part of the story.
    But the difference with Ron is that he always pushes back against the idea that the audience is stupid and will turn your show off if you don’t cater to such base attributes. He has always contended that people will watch if the show is interesting, and that you don’t need anything more than that.
    That is nothing new. It is the way things always were in film and television, before JAWS and Star Wars.
    LOts and lots of screentime with fully clothed people just sitting talking in rooms, without the camera flying all
    over the place, nothing blowing up and no one getting decapitated.
    The thing is that studios and networks have to also believe that is possible. But they are fear based entities and trust neither themselves nor the audience.
    So the finish line constantly moves and what was new is the norm, what was before, never existed and is no longer possible. Like the idea that it is impossible for children to function without computers or cell phones.

    We are the same genetic beings as we always have been, but we act as if we are not the same at all.

    It is also going to be interesting because the overstimulating, high adrenaline entertainment is IMO, very male. I think women are different and want different dories. A show like OL may be a real game changer for television and film. If it has a big audience and is financially successful, then there is a different message about what sells.
    (Don’t cancel STARZ, unless you want to send a very different message)

    That is a bit of a ramble, I hope it makes sense.
    [/quote]
    Totally makes sense. And tell Ron I love him. I prefer TV for smart people 😉 And I will never cancel STARZ.

  • #3273
    mosleslie
    Participant

    Have we beaten a dead horse yet? I’ve also been reading this forum top to bottom since it opened – YES, I SQUIRMED, 4NikiKelly, at BJR’s brutality towards Jamie. RE:STARZ I’ve only seen Ep1, sorry! Waiting on friend w/cable! But my first shock in the BOOK wasn’t anything directly violent – it was after Claire gently teased Jaime about being modest regarding his reticence to remove his shirt in front of Alec the horse master (so she could tend his wounds). Jamie reveals a shocking vulnerability (to me) when he tells Claire that he wouldn’t take his shirt off in front of Alec as a kind of reluctance to put ALEC in a place of discomfort for Jamie’s sake. It seemed like a gentlemanly response to another man – thoughtful of another’s feelings with regard to his own body. The violation of Jamie’s body by rape is so much more painful – I cannot fathom that shame. His withdrawal after his rape is not something I would really understand as quite so deeply shameful to him without knowing Jamie in the context of what I’ll call “the Alec shirt incident”. His rape was SO DIFFICULT for me to recover from – and I was so anxious and desperate for Claire to reach him and bring him back from that shame. I wanted them to recover their sweet intimacy.

    I remember thinking this book would never go to the big or small screen because there’s too much to tell, who could or would tackle it, and, well, there’s the Jamie rape. Male rape just isn’t on very many any-sized screens. I’ve only ever seen male on male rape a couple times on the big screen – but I also avoid anything that might have sexual violence in it. The 2 incidents I recall are pretty significant to each story: A rape scene in American History X becomes a significant turning point for Ed Norton’s character – it signals a final breakdown of the violent person he has been and allows for something new to happen. The event is treated with horror and respect. That’s a positive outcome to violence. But in I’ll Sleep When I’m Dead, **spoiler**, a man (Jon Rhys-Meyers) is raped on–screen by another man (Terrence Stamp), and the rest of the film is spent unpacking the consequences of his shame and why he was attacked in the first place. That rape was so sudden and unexpected that it remains one of the most uncomfortable scenes I’ve ever experienced – SQUIRM! None of us see male rape as much as we see women raped. That’s just a fact. Definitely going to need that crash helmet, Terry.

    Because I witnessed intense scenes on BSG, I trust Ron and the Team to treat Jamie’s rape with as much delicacy as it deserves. Yes, violence requires a delicate and mature sense of storytelling to be shared powerfully. One particular BSG event stands out to me, when Helo & Sharon agree to do something pretty radical for the sake of finding Hera. Those actors are heart-breaking. I don’t love the violence or the grief but I respect the commitment of both actors to those roles and to telling the story. This group of storytellers can handle the events marching towards Jamie and Claire – I don’t relish watching them, but I will be glad to see them honored for the sake of our beloved story and characters. Perhaps this story, like Jamie, needs a woman not a girl, as Alec declares to Claire. I shudder to think what ANYONE ELSE might’ve done to this story. I’m feeling more and more confident that Ron is the only person who could tell this story or christen the revolution, perchance? I’m also trusting that Ron can handle being called “woman” for the sake of the metaphor! Maturity, intimacy, and ultimately, love will tell a better story in a better way. Bring it.

    • This reply was modified 7 years, 8 months ago by mosleslie.
  • #3284
    filmfixation
    Participant

    The discussion regarding spousal corporal punishment has stuck with me-I’m doing some research and will report back with what I’ve found. The bottom line is that I don’t think the feminist response is to just wholeheartedly accept Jaime’s actions and explain them away. That being said, I’m quite pleased that Diana included this in the books because I do think it ultimately serves a valuable purpose in terms of the narrative and the forming of what eventually becomes a equal partnership. BUT I cringe when I read comments from those who are surprised that other women had an issue with it. ANYTIME a woman is in a vulnerable position and is physically abused by a man we should ask questions, give pause and fight the urge to quickly explain it away. We may come to the same conclusion, ie-that Jaime was a product of his time, equal punishment should have been dispatched for Claire’s actions, etc ect but we should still question it.

    • #3296
      barbc624
      Participant

      It seems like you are making the assumption that those who have come to terms with that scene did it without any thought which is not necessarily the case. I find that the majority of Outlander readers are thoughtful and intelligent and those who have come to terms with this have not done so lightly. Please remember that many of us read this over 20 years ago so this is kind of an old issue that was beaten to death a long time ago with appropriate angst at the time.

      The link posted earlier to a fan who struggled with this is a great read and she explains her thought process well.

      It’s a shame that as women these issues are still so present in our lives despite all the years of struggle on our part. I had hoped years ago that my daughter would grow up in a world where women were no longer 2nd class citizens…sigh. That hasn’t happened and she turned 30 this year.

      But in my view we need more men like Jamie on our side – those who can learn and accept that women are equal partners to them in our quest to make this a better world for all. I am lucky to have a husband who regards women as equal to men (if not superior)in many ways and he has been standing right beside me for many years in this struggle.

      • This reply was modified 7 years, 8 months ago by barbc624. Reason: To fix my atrocious typing!
    • #3298
      filmfixation
      Participant

      Thats fair. I was actually responding to the women who said things like, “when I first read it I had no idea why it was such a big deal” I’m not quoting anyone, just that general tone. And again, they arent wrong, but I cant help but feel uncomfortable with that response, which is also just my personal reaction.

    • #3300
      filmfixation
      Participant

      I think its worth discussing now too with the upcoming portrayal of it in the series. BUT I totally understand your point, and I respect it. I have come to the series late, and this is all fresh to me.

    • #3422
      barbc624
      Participant

      filmfixation
      Participant

      I think its worth discussing now too with the upcoming portrayal of it in the series. BUT I totally understand your point, and I respect it. I have come to the series late, and this is all fresh to me.

      You are absolutely right and I wasn’t thinking about all of the new readers/viewers who are having to deal with this for the first time. My bad.

  • #3285
    rachely
    Participant

    I did spend a lot of time thinking about it before I decided what I felt about it.

    I’m STILL pondering my feelings for the ‘return to Leoch’ sex scene where she says “stop, you’re hurting me” and he doesn’t. I still quite haven’t forgiven him for that.

    • #3288
      filmfixation
      Participant

      I agree. That scene was troubling. I need to go back and re-read that to have a more robust response though.

  • #3286
    filmfixation
    Participant
  • #3295
    euromandy
    Participant

    I’ve definitely been excited to read all the articles about The Wedding and the almost universal positive response to how it was handled. And I’m extremely curious to see public reaction to the more controversial things that are going to happen in the rest of the season. I really have to hand it to Ron, the directors and the cast for not shying away from anything.

    As someone who has been stuck in a small room all day while sex scenes are being filmed, I can definitely attest that it is pretty much the least romantic and most awkward situation an actor can be in. It’s one thing for these scenes to be written that real and intimate, but quite another for an actor to truly be able to pull it off. It’s far more difficult, and vulnerable, to do a realistic, emotional, awkward, loving depiction of sex, than how it’s normally portrayed… you see some boobs, they go at it etc. I have to give serious props to Sam and Cait for really throwing themselves into their roles, that was half the battle in making these scenes as revolutionary as they are. I really fell in love with the two of them as actors after this episode. This stuff is not easy, and even more difficult situations are coming up.

    I love that Ron is not playing to the lowest denominator, as many shows do. He’s trusting that the audience can handle realistic and difficult situations. The portrayal of real sex is the tip of the iceberg here. The audience may struggle to understand and like Jamie after the punishing of Claire. It really threw me for a loop reading it, but I came back around to him as Claire did when she comes to understand that she really is in a different world and that Jamie isn’t perfect, he’s a real, flawed individual. Ron and Sam really have their work cut out for them keeping Jamie our hero while still making him a realistic period man that we can understand. I can’t wait to see what they do.

    Also of course Jamie’s rape is a whole other beast. Talk about difficult television. I’ll be so glad if they don’t shy away from this at all, as painful as it will be to watch. We almost never see this sort of thing on any screen, and to see a strong warrior be broken and violated in this unbelievably brutal way, while a woman struggles to save him, will be something amazing to see. Sam just might have one of the best and most difficult roles on television right now.

    Ron, the show and the actors are incredibly brave to be tackling these subjects. It’s one thing to write these kinds of scenes, and another thing entirely to actually film it. It’s crazy to think that when Diana wrote these books it would have been unthinkable on TV, even now it’s rare to find and very exciting to watch.

  • #3312
    tiggeros
    Participant

    Well said euromandy!

  • #3314
    Hope
    Participant

    Dear All;

    I have to say that I’m a bit upset at the emphasis being put on Jamie’s rape and abuse by BJR. The thing about the rape of a girl or a woman is that, as someone said above, it’s par for the course. Well, it’s certainly very common. But for the girl or woman it happens to, it’s a life changer. That girl or woman is not and can never be who she was before. She can find ways to heal. (And it’s rare that she has a version of Claire in the monastery helping her.) Most women who have been raped are really pretty much left on their own. There are therapists, but talk often isn’t the answer. There are somatic therapists who get closer to helping a woman release the trauma from her body. Even so, for the rest of her life, no matter how strong or amazing she is, the assault will color all of her thoughts, her feelings, her choices. I do think that Diana Gabaldon doesn’t really tackle that in Outlander. She does much better in the later book (sorry, ABOSA?) where Claire is gang-raped. And she does an amazing bit of writing when she helps Brianna heal the part of her that feels guilt for having been raped by having Jamie physically demonstrate to her that she could not, in fact, have stopped the rape by Steven Bonnet. Rape is a huge deal, and I think women are as much a part of making it be dealt with less openly than it ought to be. Perhaps this is partially because so many women have been sexually assaulted in one way or another. Perhaps women have bought into the feeling of responsibility for ‘letting’ it happen, to whatever degree. We, as women, do feel tender to the men in our lives. I think we protect them from their own feelings sometimes, and perhaps weaken them that way. I also remember the anecdote from Brene Brown about the man talking about how his wife and daughters wanted and needed him to be on his white horse. So maybe everyone is wanting to keep Jamie on his white horse. I am not AT ALL resenting what Claire does to heal him. This is just what we should do for each other. I am just trying to say that in virtually every discussion about rape I’ve ever seen or participated in, there is a shying away from really letting ourselves feel the devastation it causes, and a fairly quick change of subject. Someone above thought when BJR was raping (or trying to rape) Claire at Fort William, they shouldn’t have shown her bottom, that was gratuitous. I don’t think so. This is more or less what happens in the book, and Claire is experiencing this vulnerability, so why shouldn’t it be part of what we are getting too? I honestly can’t think of another rape scene on TV or movies (not that I go looking for them) that is explicit and graphic enough to get close to what it is like for the woman who is undergoing the assault.
    And you might be able to tell from my vehemence that, to my sorrow and anguish, rape has been a big part of my life. Not just mine, but my young daughter’s, her friends, my friends. It is truly a huge problem. And most women just end up burying it. Even the smart and deep women of my own age simply do not talk about it and are pretty useless about knowing any way at all to help. It is a festering sore underlying our society.
    Yes, all of these women do pick themselves up and figure out how to go on with their lives (like Claire) and we do it without killing the rapist(s). Or usually even being able to get the rapists punished in any way at all. Jamie’s rape was also a torture scene, and anything touching BJR is very gruesome in and of itself. If Claire had ended up mutilated during the near-rape at Fort William, we might have felt differently for her. But the emphasis would still be on the mutilation more than the rape, in my opinion. I think there is something really subterranean going on here; I think that in some way, we as women have bought into the idea that rape is not such a terrible thing after all. Many a woman juror has voted to let a rapist go.
    Once again, I think that Ron has rounded out the story in Outlander. After the first attempted rape, he showed Claire in shock, and she clearly was still reeling from it as they were riding their horses together right before the run back to the stones. And in the second near-rape, he was also showing what needed to be seen to really get the intensity of what Claire was going through

    In my opinion, I have yet to see anything that is off in the whole adaptation so far, it just adds to the story.

    • #3319
      filmfixation
      Participant

      Hope,

      Thank you so much for sharing. Truly. Your voice is SO important to this conversation. I am moved to be a part of it and am in AWE of you and other survivors of sexual violence.

      Thank you.

    • #3349
      mosleslie
      Participant

      Hope,

      I’m really really sorry for how closely you’ve had to deal with rape in your life. I can only imagine what you and family have had to climb back from and live with. I don’t know how I would deal without great vehemence, myself. I’m sorry if I offended you with my marveling about Jamie’s attack, if it belittled in any way what you have battled.
      I don’t mean to over-focus on Jamie’s attack – My shock at Jamie’s rape in the book is more a comment on the lack of anything seen (like almost zero male skin) regarding a male body on a screen. I’m shocked by any rape, but especially this one in print, because I rarely see that in stories – not that I want to, but the little we see of male rape on TV speaks to the imbalance of what we see in terms of skin: by square inch, woman skin always outweighs man skin. I don’t WANT the men or women in my life to endure rape – it’s a nightmare to think of at all. I don’t want to see more of ANY rape on screens just because it’s part of a real life statistic. Are men, just as women, forced to face the vulnerability that rape causes by seeing rape portrayed on a screen? Who mentioned that her legs involuntarily snapped together as an instinctive response to Claire’s first almost-rape? What will my husband do when he sees Claire attacked or sees what Jamie endures (as you guys portray it)? Is it possible that as a culture we are desensitized to rape because it doesn’t happen to men as often, so they aren’t forced to deal with the reality of vulnerability and violation? And then as women, are we not producing more films to tell that part of our story from our perspective, as this show is doing? Or is there a push-back from a male-dominated production industry that doesn’t want to see male rape when it’s “comfortable” with the rape of women and easier to show? Does Claire’s perspective and the way it was filmed help gain more sympathy and RE-sensitize us, horrifying us as we should be at every rape?
      I’m just asking questions and wondering as I consider that I’ve see 2 total male rapes EVER on a screen – held up to countless rapes of women portrayed. Whether done with respect and horror or as a backdrop (GOT), it’s not to be shown on screen lightly or without respect for those who have been affected by it. I’m saying male rape is not really on shows I’m watching (and perhaps I’m avoiding the shows that are). And one last thought: if college BOYS were being raped as frequently as college women, would we need laws from on high to call an obvious NO a NO? What exactly do I want? more violence against men to even things out? Of course not. Do I want less violence against women on screens? against everyone? Of course. How does that happen by showing more violence rather than less? Does violence beget violence? Or are these scenes presenting sexual assault in a way that honors the humanity of the person violated, and helps us sympathize with them, grieving at what is being taken from them?

    • #3840
      Hope
      Participant

      Mosleslie;

      The first male rape scene I ever watched was in the movie Deliverance. It was one of the weaker men of the four who were canoeing in the Appalachian back country (I think that’s where it took place). It was basically a hillbilly who did the raping. It was pretty shocking for the time. I think the most prevalent occurence of male rape is in prisons where young men or smaller men are turned into women, basically. I don’t remember all the names they are called, but basically they are looked down upon and gain status from the larger, more powerful men who hook up with them, or else they are continual victims. Another sort of manifestation of the contempt for women, in a sense, although I certainly don’t want to denigrate the trauma that men in prison go through. I think the other male rape I know about is really pedophilia, where a boy or very young man is taken advantage of by a mentor or father figure; a boy scout leader, a priest, or other men who abuse the trust of these children. It is horrifying and very shaming and again some of those boys/men never really recover. But I do think a part of it is because there is the underlying expectation that a real man would never allow himself to be used that way or be in a position to be treated like a girl or a woman. I think the attitude that that kind of abuse for women is just to be expected exists to a very large extent, whether it is a conscious belief or just an underlying feeling. I want to say that I personally have some of the same prejudice, a greater horror at a man being raped than a woman being raped, a greater sense of the shame it causes. But at the same time I know I am really wrong in that sub-rosa belief I carry. Again I have to say I think it’s because it’s been so huge a piece of our history and even our expectations for what is always there waiting to happen to us, that when it does, we are not quite so shocked. And we also look to blame the victim(s); you should have been wearing a burqah or equivalent.
      I hope I am making myself clear here, or at least as clear as I can around this quite emotional and rather murky subject matter.
      I’m loving our conversations here and I’m hoping to not just learn but maybe evolve in my thinking about all these issues we’re tackling.
      Hope

    • #3858
      barbc624
      Participant

      Hope and Mosleslie and GraceB;

      I have been thinking of our attitudes to rape and how we as a society still very much have the blame the victim attitude, to the extent that most women still struggle with it or succumb to it themselves, even though intellectually they know such an attitude is wrong. I’ve been trying to think why that is.

      The reality is that we live in a society where rape is pervasive and any one of us can be a victim at any time. Age, marital status, social status etc, DO NOT MATTER. That is an extremely scary thought and it brings with a feeling of helplessness. In order to combat that feeling we look away, because one wants to look into the face of an oncoming train that they believe they cannot avoid; we’d rather pretend it isn’t happening and hope it veers off at the last second.

      We also unconsciously look for reasons why it cannot happen to “me” personally and I think maybe that is where the blaming of the victim comes in. “I wouldn’t have worn such a short skirt”, “I wouldn’t have been in that place at that time”, “I wouldn’t have had that drink” blah blah blah. It is comforting to think that the victim did have some control even though it seems a perverse way of thinking, because that gives us control. If I personally do all the right things, it can’t happen to me. It’s a coping mechanism in a situation where we feel we are essentially powerless and the perceived choices are to live in fear, pretend that the problem doesn’t exist, or find a way to control it as it pertains to our own self.

      Of course the other and better choice is to not accept that rape is inevitable and somehow acceptable. The first part of that is to force ourselves and our society to look it square in the face and shine the light on the reality of it. We need to call out the media that digs up the dirt on the victim while ignoring the perpetrator’s responsibility. We need to call out the entertainment shows that use rape as a lazy plot device without showing the true ugliness of it (GoT are you listening?). We need to encourage entertainment that honestly shows the reality of rape as much as is possible. I’ve read comments from Outlander fans hoping that the show will not actually show Jamie’s experience in Wentworth because they don’t think they can bear seeing it. I believe that is exactly the wrong thing to do. Bandaging up a festering wound because you don’t want to look at it only allows it to continue to fester and eventually poison the entire body. You have to look at it square on and do what is needed to clean it out and let it heal. That can take courage which some may not have (maybe for good reasons based on their past experience). We need to understand those who can’t look and not condemn them, but those of us who can must look head on into the evil and refuse to let it continue to hide away in the dark in whatever small way we can. (I personally am not looking forward to Wentworth but I will watch because in my mind not doing so denies an essential truth in the story of Jamie and Claire.)

      We need to support and assist victims and their families and we need to make rape of anyone – female, male, adult or child completely unacceptable. We can work to change the laws, but laws follow the beliefs of a society not vice versa. If we can change the belief system surrounding rape the laws will change to confirm to our beliefs.

      Finally we need to support and care for each other and continue talking and listening and creating safe spaces for those who are in need of them, which is probably all of us at one time or another.

      Thanks to all who have made this into one of those safe spaces. Maybe what we do here will be like a small stone thrown into a pond and will ripple out into the larger fandom and from there continue onward.

  • #3315
    Terry Dresbach
    Keymaster

    [quote quote=3248]Here’s a poem for you that has stuck with me since I heard Marge Piercy read it when I was about 13.

    (I don’t want to put the whole poem in here, because, you know, copyright. But there’s a link at the bottom to the whole thing on pbs.org)

    [/quote]

    I LOVE THIS!!!!!!! I am going to do a post with it.

    • #3342
      rachely
      Participant

      Here’s a poem for you that has stuck with me since I heard Marge Piercy read it when I was about 13.

      (I don’t want to put the whole poem in here, because, you know, copyright. But there’s a link at the bottom to the whole thing on pbs.org)

      I LOVE THIS!!!!!!! I am going to do a post with it.

      I’m glad. Also look for Marge Piercy’s “To Have Without Holding”. I can’t find a link that looks like it is approved by MP, so I don’t want to link. But google will do it for you. It starts “Learning to love differently is hard, love with the hands wide open, love with the doors banging on their hinges, the cupboard unlocked…”

  • #3316
    Terry Dresbach
    Keymaster

    [quote quote=3178]lust is good! being attracted to male characters (or female if that is your persuasion) is totally great, and we should derive sexual pleasure from shows that feature sex- circling back to Ryan’s article though, its rare to see sex that we (us women here) can actually recognize and then proceed to feel turned on by. [/quote]

    I am trying to think if I have ever seen a sex scene that turned me on, TV or movie. Maybe the scene with Kevin Costner and Susan Sarandon in Bull Durham. I am trying too hard to think of one, which says it all I guess.

    • #3318
      filmfixation
      Participant

      i’m very easily, erm…”affected” shall we say by visual stimuli. I think it has something to do with me being a filmmaker. Sometimes I am angry at myself for feeling turned on by something that my feminist brain is totally ripping to shreds. Okay ladies, there it is, im revealing myself!!

    • #3399
      meaganev
      Participant

      Haha, I’ll jump in there with you. I’m a very visual person, and a feminist, and sometimes I’m like, “Intelligence, can we kick in here please?”

    • #3400
      filmfixation
      Participant

      rrrright?? Thanks for sharing!

  • #3317
    Terry Dresbach
    Keymaster

    [quote quote=3195]Yeah, like 6 times… how did I miss this?!!? who is it? how did I miss this?! I feel totally dumb!

    (Speaking of which, since homophobia is un-PC are people going to complain that Jamie is utterly and unapologetically homophobic when it comes to Lord John?)
    [/quote]

    Is it? I thought it was rather progressive for the 18th century. And they become very close friends. Not many straight men today have gay male friends. But Diana gets a zillion points for Lord John Grey.

    • #3321
      filmfixation
      Participant

      totally agree. Jaime’s discomfort and then overriding sense of ultimate fondness for Lord John is a fairly subversive example of male friendship in the 18th century. zillions of points t herself for giving John so much agency and voice in the books- not to mention his own series 🙂

    • #3333
      Hope
      Participant

      I have two stepchildren, 46 and 44 who I helped raise, and our two youngest are now 31 and 28. I think that everyone should read at least one Ayn Rand book, because I think her novels are considered to be a bible for many of today’s neocons. I still remember reading Atlas Shrugged and The Fountainhead in high school and walking around in a daze for a week until I finally woke up and said to myself “This is FICTION”. I spent a lot of years on a college campus and I would see (especially) business majors and engineering students walking around with that book and want to shake them and say the same thing. I do think Ayn Rand books are incredibly compelling, and that a fair percentage of our current politicians would cite her books as a major influence on them. (I have heard and seen this more than once.)

    • #3325
      rachely
      Participant

      I think I was thinking of the scene in the barn in one of the Lord John books where Jamie basically says that gay love cannot exist that gay men are just emasculated men who can’t deal with women. And he also often equates homosexuality with pederasty a la Fox News.

    • #3327
      filmfixation
      Participant

      OH! Well yeah…haha that is certainly something isnt it! havent read it.

  • #3320
    Terry Dresbach
    Keymaster

    [quote quote=3200]OH!! Now I remember!

    I don’t think he’s particularly homophobic–any more than any man i 177whatever ESPECIALLY who’s been through what he’s been through, but I was sort of speaking hypothetically for the people who think that Ron et al should take out thrashings and rapes from the series.

    Poor Jamie, so HARD to have everyone in love with you ;)
    😉 Oh they are going to pillory us, everyone, feminists, queer nation, everyone. Until they see the whole story unfold.Nothing can be taken for ranted in this show and no assumptions or presumptions can be made. It will take time for people to understand this.
    I think that is something fundamental that Ron and Diana share, they do not deal in absolutes. Nothing is black and white, humans and human relationships are all shades of grey.

    [/quote]

  • #3322
    Terry Dresbach
    Keymaster

    [quote quote=3214]So I just read this entire thread top to bottom. It was like sliding around a plate of spaghetti and I love all the place it went. When this topic came up, about Rape, and how this show would deal with it, my thoughts immediately went to Jamie’s. When I read this book in my early twenties most of my friends had been recipients of unwanted male advances and an unfortunate handful of us were already card carrying members of the sexually assaulted club. ugh. So Claire’s attempted rapes just seemed, par for the course. But Jamie’s truly shocked me. Now that I am older I realize that male rape happens and it is a “shame shit storm” like no other.
    Author Brene Brown wrote this fascinating book on Vulnerability and this passage seemed apropos
    “Why do you think many guys struggle with fully opening up?
    I think there is still some Barbie and John Wayne stuff lingering in all of us. The story I tell that gets the biggest reaction from the guys in my audiences is when a man approached me after a lecture I gave on shame to say, “My wife and daughters…they’d rather see me die on top of my white horse than watch me fall off. You say you want us to be vulnerable and real, but c’mon. You can’t stand it. It makes you sick to see us like that.”

    I think thats why Im half curious, half anxious about the upcoming episodes. The spanking didn’t bother me, but seeing strong Jamie broken like that. The way he was at the abbey. It made me squirm. If that makes any sense.
    [/quote]

    [quote quote=3206]I wonder if Brianna is suffering by comparison with what we’re used to from Claire? After all, when we met Claire, she was 7 years older and with far more life experience (WWII nurse, orphaned & travels with Uncle Lamb, etc.) than Brianna, who is just 20 and was raised as the apple of her daddy’s eye. She was also raised by Claire, with a strong female role model without realizing how hard it was to achieve that level of accomplishment.
    I think she gained my respect when she chose to take the journey … and then when she dealt with her rape and aftermath. She’s also a survivor, but has come to the past from a much different time and situation in the future than Claire did.
    She is also extraordinarily patient with Roger when he needs it …..
    But yes, Diana Gabaldon writes extraordinarily strong characters – men and women.[/quote]

    Which is what appeals to an idealist like me. They really personify the kind of person I strive to be, and certainly the kind of marriage I wanted to hold out for, as the firmly unmarried woman I once was.

  • #3323
    Terry Dresbach
    Keymaster

    [quote quote=3302]I was so curious about why 50 shades of Gray was so popular that I actually bought a used copy to read. (I’ve done this in the past to expose my children to Ayn Rand; if you buy used, the money doesn’t go back to the author or the Ayn Rand Institute.) It was boring and not erotic. I think there is not enough real erotica out there available to women. And there does seem to be a trend for the alpha male making the female submit in more than one genre. As a woman, I enjoy an manly man, but not if that’s the only facet he owns.[/quote]

    Oh I love that buying it used part! Friggin Ayn Rand. How old are your kids, and why did you want to expose them to her? Fascinating!

    Never read 50 Shades. The trendiness of it seemed like a warning sign, and I agree, there is plenty of great erotica out there if one chooses.

    • #3328
      rachely
      Participant

      there is plenty of great erotica out there if one chooses.

      Okay, are we all feeling like this is a safe space (Terry, you are awesome, because I at least feel like this is a safe space).

      Who has erotica recommendations?

    • #3330
      filmfixation
      Participant

      ha! great minds…

    • #3341
      Hope
      Participant

      My stepchildren are 46 and 44 (I helped raise them), my natural children are 31 and 28. I wanted my kids to read Ayn Rand because she writes very compelling books that can make you believe that we are all better acting alone and that community and government only get in the way. Her influence has been enormous on current politicians, and her books continue to be best sellers. This is all antithetical to my own beliefs, and I do think that people should read her books (used!) but remember that it’s FICTION! (And I’m not saying there are not things we need to do on our own, just not exclusively.)

    • #3329
      filmfixation
      Participant

      Terry: do you have any recs for good erotica?

    • #3332
      rachely
      Participant

      filmfixation, wanna be my new BFF? 🙂 Great minds and all…

    • #3334
      filmfixation
      Participant

      haha, YES!!

    • #3367
      elizlk
      Participant

      Better yet, just get a library book or buy on BetterWorld Books … you may be buying a used library book, and supporting literacy orgs at the same time.

      My mom also encouraged me to read The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged. They were good yarns/stories, and I wanted to be an architect at the time (starting high school). I was horrified to arrive at college and realize people were going for the political philosophy of Atlas Shrugged – and still do. I kept the copies of the books as a reminder. She & I had some interesting conversation about that when I got home from college … she’s very much a feminist and always stood for social justice, in her own way.

    • #3841
      Hope
      Participant

      Eliza
      I pass on my used books (non-keepers) to our local library for the collection or for resale. Access to books and libraries is one of the things that help us keep knowledgeable and to stay free in world that is always trying to become more despotic.
      Hope

  • #3331
    Terry Dresbach
    Keymaster

    [quote quote=3231]I love this topic! There is so much good stuff in the replies here, that I don’t even know where to start.But I will try to organize my thoughts on what has been said here.

    1. BJR – I believe he is an extremely damaged man. A sociopath and/or sadist, but I don’t know if it is by birth or by experience or a combination of both. I do believe that he is capable of love to some extent – witness his care and concern for his younger brother to the extent of asking Claire (of all people) to assist Alex and his acceptance of being in the same room with both Claire and Jamie in order to make his brother happy. I don’t condone what he is in any way, or forget that he is very dangerous but I have to believe that inside him there is some tiny tiny tiny speck of humanity. We haven’t learned exactly what happened in the end between him and Jamie at Culloden since Jamie has suppressed his memories of that day, but I hope that Diana is going to address that before the end of the series so I can see if I am right or if he is indeed pure evil.

    2. The whole rape controversy. Much as I hate to say it, rape is is a fact of not only 18th century life but of the present day. The difference being that we try to sweep it under the rug and pretend we are so much better than people were in the past. Look at the obscene numbers of rapes going on daily on college campuses and the attempt by schools to pretend they weren’t happening, until they are now being forced to deal because of social media attention being brought to bear on them.

    Outlander depicts rape as a brutal and violent act. It doesn’t pretty it up and make it exciting. Even though I knew what was going to happen with the attempted rape of Claire in Episode 8 it was a horrific scene to watch. I loved that it was uncomfortable and, that in no way did it glorify the act of rape. As someone here said, the focus was on Claire and not on the would be rapist and it stayed on Claire in the aftermath. One of the reasons I don’t really like GoT is the constant background nudity, rape and violence against women presented as background.There is no empathy or horror in it because the women are nothing more than props. It serves to desensitize the viewer and it also serves to legitimize rape, as do many current movies and tv shows.

    Outlander gets up in our face and forces us to see rape as the act of violence that it is. I think that is really what is making some people uncomfortable. It’s not the number of rapes (or near rapes) on the show it’s the reality of how they are depicted and I think it hits too close to home for some. It doesn’t allow us to look through our rose colored glasses. We all want to think that we live in a safe and civilized world, but as women we all know that we really don’t. I remember the twitter campaign a few months back where, after several women came out with stories about being sexually harassed at Comic conventions, some men started the hashtag #butnotallmen complaining that men were being painted with too broad a brush. In response, a women answered with the hashtag #yesallwomen where women tweeted their everyday experiences with harassment, from the simple ones of men ogling them on the street, to actual verbal and physical harassment, to the horrific ones of physical assault and rape. It was hard to see all of the responses from so many women ranging from young teens to women on the far side of 50. What was even worse was seeing how so many of us women accept such things as a normal fact of life and we deal with them and move on rather than pushing to make it unacceptable. I am guilty of that myself.

    But in order to end this culture of rape and women as sexual objects, we need to bring it into the light of day and I commend Ron for not shying away from doing so. It would be easy to cop out and back off from actually showing the hard stuff. And it would be easy not to watch (or read) it. But I believe that popular culture can be a powerful agent of change when its creators have the courage to go against the mainstream and make the hard choices to show things in all their real ugliness. I don’t look forward to seeing what will be coming at the end of the season. I had a hard time reading it, and I know I will have a hard time seeing it, but if Outlander is to be true to the spirit of the books it does need to go there and am I happy to know you all will be doing so. Just remember that when the shit storm hits, there are many fans who will be standing with you and supporting you. If we don’t admit to the bad things we do to each other as a part of our culture we will never change them.

    3. I love Claire as a character. Kelly Sue DeConnick (comic book writer and a damn good one)spoke at a panel I attended and I loved
    her theory of female agency and the”sexy lamp”. Essentially she said that if you can take a woman out of a scene and replace her with a sexy lamp without losing anything then, she has no agency. However,if the sexy lamp doesn’t cut it and you need that woman speaking and acting you have succeeded in writing that strong woman character. By that yardstick Claire definitely does have agency most of the time. In the wedding night scenes Claire as an active participant is essential – no lamp, no matter how sexy, could replace Claire/Catriona in that scene.

    4. The wedding night sex. Mostly I cringe when I see sex in movies or on TV; it just seems so fake. I loved the wedding night though because it was so real. The awkwardness of two people (one of them a virgin) being pretty much forced into sex for reasons other than actual love or desire came across so well and so true to life. The subsequent progression from becoming comfortable with each other,to actually wanting each other, and finally to expressing the caring for each other that was taking root was beautiful. Sam and Catriona were amazing in the way they portrayed all of that with so few words. (I do believe that having a woman writer and a woman director were a big part of that.) Jamie and Claire have touched so many people because they have a love that is deeply rooted in love and respect for each other,and one that endures through some pretty horrible events and across centuries. The wedding night scene laid the foundation for that love that is to come.

    5. The spanking. I have never understood all the furor over this. Despite what some say, Jamie was acting as a product of his time and culture. He did what he had been brought up to do. We may not like historical attitudes but we need to acknowledge them and learn from them, not pretend that history did not happen or we will be doomed to repeat it.

    If Jamie had continued to beat Claire throughout the books I probably would have gotten disgusted and put them down. But (and here we go with the female agency again), Claire does not let him. She pulls her knife on him (which is symbolic because we know he could take easily it away from her) and lets him know in no uncertain terms that he’s had his one pass. He’s not getting another one.And Jamie, being Jamie, is able to accept that. He even swears an oath to Claire that he will never lay a hand on her again. Today we don’t take oaths or promises very seriously (and maybe that’s the crux of the problem some readers have with this scene because they don’t understand the significance of what Jamie has done>), but in the 18th century oaths were something you didn’t break on pain of death. By doing what he does, Jamie is putting Claire right up there with a clan laird. This scene to me is the turning point of their relationship. It’s where they truly do become two against the world, and it’s the underpinning that enables their relationship to endure through the years.

    So that’s what I’ve got. I look forward to the second half and the good and bad that is to come.

    [/quote]

    Well, there is no need for me to post again as you nailed every single one of my perspectives. Awesome post. And thank you, ahead of time for your support. We are going to need it. It is going to be a shitstorm. Which I find interesting after watching all the torture porn on GOT that no one seemed to mind. But again, you can stand outside

  • #3335
    Terry Dresbach
    Keymaster

    [quote quote=3231]I love this topic! There is so much good stuff in the replies here, that I don’t even know where to start.But I will try to organize my thoughts on what has been said here.

    1. BJR – I believe he is an extremely damaged man. A sociopath and/or sadist, but I don’t know if it is by birth or by experience or a combination of both. I do believe that he is capable of love to some extent – witness his care and concern for his younger brother to the extent of asking Claire (of all people) to assist Alex and his acceptance of being in the same room with both Claire and Jamie in order to make his brother happy. I don’t condone what he is in any way, or forget that he is very dangerous but I have to believe that inside him there is some tiny tiny tiny speck of humanity. We haven’t learned exactly what happened in the end between him and Jamie at Culloden since Jamie has suppressed his memories of that day, but I hope that Diana is going to address that before the end of the series so I can see if I am right or if he is indeed pure evil.

    2. The whole rape controversy. Much as I hate to say it, rape is is a fact of not only 18th century life but of the present day. The difference being that we try to sweep it under the rug and pretend we are so much better than people were in the past. Look at the obscene numbers of rapes going on daily on college campuses and the attempt by schools to pretend they weren’t happening, until they are now being forced to deal because of social media attention being brought to bear on them.

    Outlander depicts rape as a brutal and violent act. It doesn’t pretty it up and make it exciting. Even though I knew what was going to happen with the attempted rape of Claire in Episode 8 it was a horrific scene to watch. I loved that it was uncomfortable and, that in no way did it glorify the act of rape. As someone here said, the focus was on Claire and not on the would be rapist and it stayed on Claire in the aftermath. One of the reasons I don’t really like GoT is the constant background nudity, rape and violence against women presented as background.There is no empathy or horror in it because the women are nothing more than props. It serves to desensitize the viewer and it also serves to legitimize rape, as do many current movies and tv shows.

    Outlander gets up in our face and forces us to see rape as the act of violence that it is. I think that is really what is making some people uncomfortable. It’s not the number of rapes (or near rapes) on the show it’s the reality of how they are depicted and I think it hits too close to home for some. It doesn’t allow us to look through our rose colored glasses. We all want to think that we live in a safe and civilized world, but as women we all know that we really don’t. I remember the twitter campaign a few months back where, after several women came out with stories about being sexually harassed at Comic conventions, some men started the hashtag #butnotallmen complaining that men were being painted with too broad a brush. In response, a women answered with the hashtag #yesallwomen where women tweeted their everyday experiences with harassment, from the simple ones of men ogling them on the street, to actual verbal and physical harassment, to the horrific ones of physical assault and rape. It was hard to see all of the responses from so many women ranging from young teens to women on the far side of 50. What was even worse was seeing how so many of us women accept such things as a normal fact of life and we deal with them and move on rather than pushing to make it unacceptable. I am guilty of that myself.

    But in order to end this culture of rape and women as sexual objects, we need to bring it into the light of day and I commend Ron for not shying away from doing so. It would be easy to cop out and back off from actually showing the hard stuff. And it would be easy not to watch (or read) it. But I believe that popular culture can be a powerful agent of change when its creators have the courage to go against the mainstream and make the hard choices to show things in all their real ugliness. I don’t look forward to seeing what will be coming at the end of the season. I had a hard time reading it, and I know I will have a hard time seeing it, but if Outlander is to be true to the spirit of the books it does need to go there and am I happy to know you all will be doing so. Just remember that when the shit storm hits, there are many fans who will be standing with you and supporting you. If we don’t admit to the bad things we do to each other as a part of our culture we will never change them.

    3. I love Claire as a character. Kelly Sue DeConnick (comic book writer and a damn good one)spoke at a panel I attended and I loved
    her theory of female agency and the”sexy lamp”. Essentially she said that if you can take a woman out of a scene and replace her with a sexy lamp without losing anything then, she has no agency. However,if the sexy lamp doesn’t cut it and you need that woman speaking and acting you have succeeded in writing that strong woman character. By that yardstick Claire definitely does have agency most of the time. In the wedding night scenes Claire as an active participant is essential – no lamp, no matter how sexy, could replace Claire/Catriona in that scene.

    4. The wedding night sex. Mostly I cringe when I see sex in movies or on TV; it just seems so fake. I loved the wedding night though because it was so real. The awkwardness of two people (one of them a virgin) being pretty much forced into sex for reasons other than actual love or desire came across so well and so true to life. The subsequent progression from becoming comfortable with each other,to actually wanting each other, and finally to expressing the caring for each other that was taking root was beautiful. Sam and Catriona were amazing in the way they portrayed all of that with so few words. (I do believe that having a woman writer and a woman director were a big part of that.) Jamie and Claire have touched so many people because they have a love that is deeply rooted in love and respect for each other,and one that endures through some pretty horrible events and across centuries. The wedding night scene laid the foundation for that love that is to come.

    5. The spanking. I have never understood all the furor over this. Despite what some say, Jamie was acting as a product of his time and culture. He did what he had been brought up to do. We may not like historical attitudes but we need to acknowledge them and learn from them, not pretend that history did not happen or we will be doomed to repeat it.

    If Jamie had continued to beat Claire throughout the books I probably would have gotten disgusted and put them down. But (and here we go with the female agency again), Claire does not let him. She pulls her knife on him (which is symbolic because we know he could take easily it away from her) and lets him know in no uncertain terms that he’s had his one pass. He’s not getting another one.And Jamie, being Jamie, is able to accept that. He even swears an oath to Claire that he will never lay a hand on her again. Today we don’t take oaths or promises very seriously (and maybe that’s the crux of the problem some readers have with this scene because they don’t understand the significance of what Jamie has done>), but in the 18th century oaths were something you didn’t break on pain of death. By doing what he does, Jamie is putting Claire right up there with a clan laird. This scene to me is the turning point of their relationship. It’s where they truly do become two against the world, and it’s the underpinning that enables their relationship to endure through the years.

    So that’s what I’ve got. I look forward to the second half and the good and bad that is to come.

    Amazing post. I agree with every single thing you said. And thank you for your support. I think the reaction will be ferocious. Which I find very interesting considering the torture porn on GOT every week. But I think you get to step outside of that and be a impassive voyeur. outside of the ICK factor I am not sure you feel much emotional connections to the characters who are being tortured. In OL, not only are we emotionally attached, hopefully to BOTH characters, but we have to deal with the emotional connection between these two men, built out of sadistic pain. Hard to make that an easy, simple equation for audiences not used to being asked to think deeply.

    [/quote]

  • #3336
    Terry Dresbach
    Keymaster

    [quote quote=3282]Completely agree re: full frontal male nudity. The penis is held as this sacred, private and special piece of anatomy whereas the entire female form is up for grabs? No.

    Perhaps in that wonderful section towards the end of the book where Jaime walk out naked in the snow, I love that. The opportunity for striking visuals there is exciting!!
    [/quote]

    There are some things that you guys discuss that I cannot, so just know that when you all speculate about what is coming up, I have to remain silent.

    • #3337
      filmfixation
      Participant

      totally get it. Actually wouldnt even want to know if i could 🙂

  • #3338
    tiggeros
    Participant

    Indeed – pretty good odds on a shitstorm ahead, however, I do think that most viewers who’ve read the books will understand the issues -or at east be forewarned, and have had time to process ( or talk about it on forums like this!) as has already been said, Outlander book fans are generally an intelligent bunch! It’s also one of the big draws for me personally to watch the adaptation, to see how all these aspects/events and layers will be . Up until now, it’s been fascinating, and despite knowing what’s going to happen, I’ve been on the edge of my seat *as if I didn’t* – a sign of truly amazing film-making. <3

  • #3339
    Katie (@bunnums)
    Participant

    [quote quote=3336]
    There are some things that you guys discuss that I cannot, so just know that when you all speculate about what is coming up, I have to remain silent.
    [/quote]

    I don’t think anyone expects you to comment on the speculations of future episodes. Really don’t want you to lose your job! 😉

    Katie

  • #3343
    Terry Dresbach
    Keymaster

    [quote quote=3273]Have we beaten a dead horse yet? I’ve also been reading this forum top to bottom since it opened – YES, I SQUIRMED, 4NikiKelly, at BJR’s brutality towards Jamie. RE:STARZ I’ve only seen Ep1, sorry! Waiting on friend w/cable! But my first shock in the BOOK wasn’t anything directly violent – it was after Claire gently teased Jaime about being modest regarding his reticence to remove his shirt in front of Alec the horse master (so she could tend his wounds). Jamie reveals a shocking vulnerability (to me) when he tells Claire that he wouldn’t take his shirt off in front of Alec as a kind of reluctance to put ALEC in a place of discomfort for Jamie’s sake. It seemed like a gentlemanly response to another man – thoughtful of another’s feelings with regard to his own body. The violation of Jamie’s body by rape is so much more painful – I cannot fathom that shame. His withdrawal after his rape is not something I would really understand as quite so deeply shameful to him without knowing Jamie in the context of what I’ll call “the Alec shirt incident”. His rape was SO DIFFICULT for me to recover from – and I was so anxious and desperate for Claire to reach him and bring him back from that shame. I wanted them to recover their sweet intimacy.

    I remember thinking this book would never go to the big or small screen because there’s too much to tell, who could or would tackle it, and, well, there’s the Jamie rape. Male rape just isn’t on very many any-sized screens. I’ve only ever seen male on male rape a couple times on the big screen – but I also avoid anything that might have sexual violence in it. The 2 incidents I recall are pretty significant to each story: A rape scene in American History X becomes a significant turning point for Ed Norton’s character – it signals a final breakdown of the violent person he has been and allows for something new to happen. The event is treated with horror and respect. That’s a positive outcome to violence. But in I’ll Sleep When I’m Dead, **spoiler**, a man (Jon Rhys-Meyers) is raped on–screen by another man (Terrence Stamp), and the rest of the film is spent unpacking the consequences of his shame and why he was attacked in the first place. That rape was so sudden and unexpected that it remains one of the most uncomfortable scenes I’ve ever experienced – SQUIRM! None of us see male rape as much as we see women raped. That’s just a fact. Definitely going to need that crash helmet, Terry.

    Because I witnessed intense scenes on BSG, I trust Ron and the Team to treat Jamie’s rape with as much delicacy as it deserves. Yes, violence requires a delicate and mature sense of storytelling to be shared powerfully. One particular BSG event stands out to me, when Helo & Sharon agree to do something pretty radical for the sake of finding Hera. Those actors are heart-breaking. I don’t love the violence or the grief but I respect the commitment of both actors to those roles and to telling the story. This group of storytellers can handle the events marching towards Jamie and Claire – I don’t relish watching them, but I will be glad to see them honored for the sake of our beloved story and characters. Perhaps this story, like Jamie, needs a woman not a girl, as Alec declares to Claire. I shudder to think what ANYONE ELSE might’ve done to this story. I’m feeling more and more confident that Ron is the only person who could tell this story or christen the revolution, perchance? I’m also trusting that Ron can handle being called “woman” for the sake of the metaphor! Maturity, intimacy, and ultimately, love will tell a better story in a better way. Bring it.
    [/quote]

    I remember being absolutely stunned when Ron did the episode on BSG when Boomer was raped. It was supposed to be okay because she wasn’t human and because she was the enemy. It was so powerful and so raw. But BSG always asked us, does it matter who someone is, is there any situation where one deserves to be stripped of their human dignity, to be abused, tortured, raped, or murdered? The question, “what does it mean to be human?”, was a question not only about the non humans, the Cylons, but of us as viewers. When faced with the reality of the perpetuation human suffering we inflict upon each other, is it ever right? Do we avert our gaze, turn the channel, what do we do? How do WE feel about it? what does being human mean to us?
    That is the power of film and television, it can ask those questions of millions of people.

    • #3351
      mosleslie
      Participant

      I still nearly vomit with stress over that scene with Boomer. And don’t even ask me to start with Gina and Michelle Forbes’ Cain – well done, how much emotional response that evoked from me. I lurve Tricia’s range. OMG. she sold the pain.

  • #3345
    Terry Dresbach
    Keymaster

    [quote quote=3285]I did spend a lot of time thinking about it before I decided what I felt about it.

    I’m STILL pondering my feelings for the ‘return to Leoch’ sex scene where she says “stop, you’re hurting me” and he doesn’t. I still quite haven’t forgiven him for that.
    [/quote]

    I had to stop and think about that scene. But I am okay with it. Human sexuality is a tricky business. Sometimes things happen in that incredible intimacy that are just not academic. Had she really taken it further and said, ” JAMIE, I SAID STOP”, I think he would have. I could be reading into it, something that wasn’t there, but I think that scene was about something more. It was a very male moment. He was was in love with and married to a woman who was still committed to another man, and he wanted her to be his. Sometimes those things are communicated sexually, and it can be very intense.
    Oh does that make an ounce of sense? Slippery slope…

    • #3348
      filmfixation
      Participant

      this is an excerpt from a blog post that was reccomended somewhere above, I think it elaborates and builds on what you say!

      “It’s too complex to go into without a lot of explanation, but the crux of it is that Jamie tries a new tactic of asserting himself. Instead of using his strength against her, he is using his strength in her, in bed. Only this time it’s not just her and her body he’s trying to conquer, it’s the barrier she puts up every time she thinks of Frank. He uses sex as a way to force a choice on her—without saying so directly—between himself, and Frank. We know this because Claire is giving a very clear description about what is happening to her. She does not describe it as being a rape but rather a reluctance on her part to choose. But she forced a choice on him at knife point, this is Jamie’s turn.
      She resists him mentally at first, though not bodily, and resists the idea of him becoming, in his words, her “master.” And yes, the sex between them is rough, but this is another one of those foundational moments between them. Once she gives in and chooses Jamie, she goes from passivity and resistance to full contact engagement in a moment. The two of them have, under their stubbornness and strong wills, a kind of ferocity and hunger for each other that they fully discover in that moment. And when it is over, Claire gives Jamie a questioning look. “Oh, aye,” he tells her. “I’m your master….and you’re mine. Seems I canna possess your soul without losing my own.” Which is something, she reflects, that not even Frank figured out. ”

      Post URL: http://jmrichards.tumblr.com/post/94371737603/outlanders-infamous-spanking-scene-yes-again

  • #3346
    Hope
    Participant

    Help, my replies are ending up in the wrong places? Can anyone tell me what I’m doing wrong?

  • #3347
    Terry Dresbach
    Keymaster

    [quote quote=3186]

    REALLY?????? BSG? Oh, I love that. He sounds amazing.

    Tho’ he was my dad and I’m biased, he really was amazing. I wrote his obituary: it even mentions Star Trek and single-malt scotch:) AND he was a union organizer.

    What you just wrote was an amazing obituary! Now I will read the other one.

    He grew up in a typical 50s household, yet somehow became an unapologetic feminist, even before he had two daughters. I grew up reading Emily Dickinson and Margaret Atwood along with John Donne and Shakespeare. My mom taught me to be self-sufficient but it was my dad who taught me to be proud of myself and everything I had been and everything I would become.
    [/quote]

    • This reply was modified 7 years, 2 months ago by Mandy Tidwell. Reason: Edited to remove the link to the obit
  • #3350
    Terry Dresbach
    Keymaster

    [quote quote=3314]Dear All;

    I have to say that I’m a bit upset at the emphasis being put on Jamie’s rape and abuse by BJR. The thing about the rape of a girl or a woman is that, as someone said above, it’s par for the course. Well, it’s certainly very common. But for the girl or woman it happens to, it’s a life changer. That girl or woman is not and can never be who she was before. She can find ways to heal. (And it’s rare that she has a version of Claire in the monastery helping her.) Most women who have been raped are really pretty much left on their own. There are therapists, but talk often isn’t the answer. There are somatic therapists who get closer to helping a woman release the trauma from her body. Even so, for the rest of her life, no matter how strong or amazing she is, the assault will color all of her thoughts, her feelings, her choices. I do think that Diana Gabaldon doesn’t really tackle that in Outlander. She does much better in the later book (sorry, ABOSA?) where Claire is gang-raped. And she does an amazing bit of writing when she helps Brianna heal the part of her that feels guilt for having been raped by having Jamie physically demonstrate to her that she could not, in fact, have stopped the rape by Steven Bonnet. Rape is a huge deal, and I think women are as much a part of making it be dealt with less openly than it ought to be. Perhaps this is partially because so many women have been sexually assaulted in one way or another. Perhaps women have bought into the feeling of responsibility for ‘letting’ it happen, to whatever degree. We, as women, do feel tender to the men in our lives. I think we protect them from their own feelings sometimes, and perhaps weaken them that way. I also remember the anecdote from Brene Brown about the man talking about how his wife and daughters wanted and needed him to be on his white horse. So maybe everyone is wanting to keep Jamie on his white horse. I am not AT ALL resenting what Claire does to heal him. This is just what we should do for each other. I am just trying to say that in virtually every discussion about rape I’ve ever seen or participated in, there is a shying away from really letting ourselves feel the devastation it causes, and a fairly quick change of subject. Someone above thought when BJR was raping (or trying to rape) Claire at Fort William, they shouldn’t have shown her bottom, that was gratuitous. I don’t think so. This is more or less what happens in the book, and Claire is experiencing this vulnerability, so why shouldn’t it be part of what we are getting too? I honestly can’t think of another rape scene on TV or movies (not that I go looking for them) that is explicit and graphic enough to get close to what it is like for the woman who is undergoing the assault.
    And you might be able to tell from my vehemence that, to my sorrow and anguish, rape has been a big part of my life. Not just mine, but my young daughter’s, her friends, my friends. It is truly a huge problem. And most women just end up burying it. Even the smart and deep women of my own age simply do not talk about it and are pretty useless about knowing any way at all to help. It is a festering sore underlying our society.
    Yes, all of these women do pick themselves up and figure out how to go on with their lives (like Claire) and we do it without killing the rapist(s). Or usually even being able to get the rapists punished in any way at all. Jamie’s rape was also a torture scene, and anything touching BJR is very gruesome in and of itself. If Claire had ended up mutilated during the near-rape at Fort William, we might have felt differently for her. But the emphasis would still be on the mutilation more than the rape, in my opinion. I think there is something really subterranean going on here; I think that in some way, we as women have bought into the idea that rape is not such a terrible thing after all. Many a woman juror has voted to let a rapist go.
    Once again, I think that Ron has rounded out the story in Outlander. After the first attempted rape, he showed Claire in shock, and she clearly was still reeling from it as they were riding their horses together right before the run back to the stones. And in the second near-rape, he was also showing what needed to be seen to really get the intensity of what Claire was going through

    In my opinion, I have yet to see anything that is off in the whole adaptation so far, it just adds to the story.
    [/quote]

    That is a profound post, and if not one other good thing comes out of this forum, I will have your amazing words and story. I don’t think there is a woman here, or anywhere, who has not either been raped, sexually assaulted, or spend most of her life in fear of it.
    It is a very, very powerful issue to take on and do right by. I hope we can continue to live up to your expectations.

  • #3352
    Terry Dresbach
    Keymaster

    [quote quote=3349]Hope,

    I’m really really sorry for how closely you’ve had to deal with rape in your life. I can only imagine what you and family have had to climb back from and live with. I don’t know how I would deal without great vehemence, myself. I’m sorry if I offended you with my marveling about Jamie’s attack, if it belittled in any way what you have battled.
    I don’t mean to over-focus on Jamie’s attack – My shock at Jamie’s rape in the book is more a comment on the lack of anything seen (like almost zero male skin) regarding a male body on a screen. I’m shocked by any rape, but especially this one in print, because I rarely see that in stories – not that I want to, but the little we see of male rape on TV speaks to the imbalance of what we see in terms of skin: by square inch, woman skin always outweighs man skin. I don’t WANT the men or women in my life to endure rape – it’s a nightmare to think of at all. I don’t want to see more of ANY rape on screens just because it’s part of a real life statistic. Are men, just as women, forced to face the vulnerability that rape causes by seeing rape portrayed on a screen? Who mentioned that her legs involuntarily snapped together as an instinctive response to Claire’s first almost-rape? What will my husband do when he sees Claire attacked or sees what Jamie endures (as you guys portray it)? Is it possible that as a culture we are desensitized to rape because it doesn’t happen to men as often, so they aren’t forced to deal with the reality of vulnerability and violation? And then as women, are we not producing more films to tell that part of our story from our perspective, as this show is doing? Or is there a push-back from a male-dominated production industry that doesn’t want to see male rape when it’s “comfortable” with the rape of women and easier to show? Does Claire’s perspective and the way it was filmed help gain more sympathy and RE-sensitize us, horrifying us as we should be at every rape?
    I’m just asking questions and wondering as I consider that I’ve see 2 total male rapes EVER on a screen – held up to countless rapes of women portrayed. Whether done with respect and horror or as a backdrop (GOT), it’s not to be shown on screen lightly or without respect for those who have been affected by it. I’m saying male rape is not really on shows I’m watching (and perhaps I’m avoiding the shows that are). And one last thought: if college BOYS were being raped as frequently as college women, would we need laws from on high to call an obvious NO a NO? What exactly do I want? more violence against men to even things out? Of course not. Do I want less violence against women on screens? against everyone? Of course. How does that happen by showing more violence rather than less? Does violence beget violence? Or are these scenes presenting sexual assault in a way that honors the humanity of the person violated, and helps us sympathize with them, grieving at what is being taken from them?
    [/quote]
    What an extraordinary discussion this is. Thank you all!!!!!

  • #3353
    Terry Dresbach
    Keymaster

    [quote quote=3318]i’m very easily, erm…”affected” shall we say by visual stimuli. I think it has something to do with me being a filmmaker. Sometimes I am angry at myself for feeling turned on by something that my feminist brain is totally ripping to shreds. Okay ladies, there it is, im revealing myself!![/quote]

    Sex is not academic. It is good to get out of your head. There is no politically correct way to be turned on. I don’t believe in editing your sexual self. Another thing I like about Claire, and this connects to my less than succinct attempt to express my thought on the scene back at Leoch.

    • #3354
      filmfixation
      Participant

      Thank you Terry! I needed to hear that today 🙂

    • #3371
      rachely
      Participant

      When I was an undergrad I wrote like a 30 page paper on how awful the movie 9 1/2 weeks was. I totally don’t remember my thesis, but I do remember the embarrassment of being turned on even though I was writing a paper about how awful it was.

  • #3355
    Terry Dresbach
    Keymaster

    [quote quote=3333]I have two stepchildren, 46 and 44 who I helped raise, and our two youngest are now 31 and 28. I think that everyone should read at least one Ayn Rand book, because I think her novels are considered to be a bible for many of today’s neocons. I still remember reading Atlas Shrugged and The Fountainhead in high school and walking around in a daze for a week until I finally woke up and said to myself “This is FICTION”. I spent a lot of years on a college campus and I would see (especially) business majors and engineering students walking around with that book and want to shake them and say the same thing. I do think Ayn Rand books are incredibly compelling, and that a fair percentage of our current politicians would cite her books as a major influence on them. (I have heard and seen this more than once.)
    [/quote]

    Your voice reminds me a lot of my own mother, a highly intelligent and perceptive woman, who would have said almost the same thing about Ayn Rand. As I age, I am coming to understand how much age had to do with her incredible wisdom. She was almost 37 when she had me, so I never knew her as “young”, in the parental sense. It was an amazing gift. I think I am seeing that in your posts and it is wonderful to have such a diverse group of women here in this discussion.

    • #3463
      Hope
      Participant

      Dear Terry;
      I can’t think of a better compliment than to be told I remind you of your mother. My own mother was extraordinary, flawed like all of us, but what a woman! Thank you, Hope

  • #3356
    Terry Dresbach
    Keymaster

    [quote quote=3329]Terry: do you have any recs for good erotica? [/quote] They are in my bookcase in America. But there is usually a women’s erotica section in a good bookstore. But it might have been in Berkeley! There was a collection of short stories edited by Susie Bright…

    • #3358
      filmfixation
      Participant

      Thank you! Oh man Susie Bright, had heard of her, but just looked her up on Amazon. Fantastic.

  • #3357
    Terry Dresbach
    Keymaster

    [quote quote=3339]

    There are some things that you guys discuss that I cannot, so just know that when you all speculate about what is coming up, I have to remain silent.

    I don’t think anyone expects you to comment on the speculations of future episodes. Really don’t want you to lose your job! ;-)

    Katie
    [/quote]

    I keep trying to get fired!!! To no avail!

  • #3359
    Terry Dresbach
    Keymaster

    [quote quote=3346]Help, my replies are ending up in the wrong places? Can anyone tell me what I’m doing wrong?[/quote]

    SEEMS right, Hope!

  • #3360
    Hope
    Participant

    Dear All;
    Since I still can’t figure out how to get replies in the places I want to I’m going to just try and answer you all here at the end. (I think that’s where it will be!) First I have to say that I am stunned at the people who are on this blog (forum?) right now. I feel the heart and intelligence in all of these posts. I usually lurk more than post, because mostly it’s just not worth the contentious exchanges.
    I have to thank you for all of support. It really is something I have gotten very little of in my life. My daughter was raped when she was in 8th grade; she’d just turned 14. We were very private about it, but girls talk and the kind of judgment that we as parents and as a family received was pretty horrifying. Her rapist was 29 and it all went to trial after about a year of therapy and trying to get my daughter a bit more in one piece, and the jury acquitted him. He had hired a very expensive lawyer, and for a number of years on his home web site he mentioned, as advertisement that he had gotten a man off of raping a 14 year old girl. This was statutory rape, if nothing else.
    I rarely talk about this, my daughter is an amazing person today and our family became even closer through all of the trauma, so we’ve definitely thrived. But it’s always there.
    I grew up with three brothers. I knew their incredible sweetness when they were young, and I saw them brutalized as they got older. They are not small men, it’s just the culture. My oldest brother lost his wife to cancer almost two year ago and he’s so sad and I’m the next closest person to him in the world and I can hardly pull anything out of him. He’s just quietly suffering away.
    I’m saying this because I do know that women need to be tender in a special way with men. Claire’s refusal to be put off by all of Jamie’s evasions after his extreme trauma from BJR is something I think many of us identify with. And maybe as mothers, or potential mothers we do nurture others more than ourselves, or other women.
    All this to say that I do cringe from thinking about the episode at Wentworth Prison. I’ve read Outlander many times, and that part only twice. I skip right on to the part where Claire is sewing him up. (I hate the wolf scene too, partly because I love the idea of wolves in the wild and Claire’s battle with the wolf is so very graphic. DG certainly does get down and dirty.)
    Terry, you’ve done something amazing with this forum. I hope it can maintain this; thank goodness for moderators.
    Can we talk about fabric now?
    Hope

    • #3362
      mosleslie
      Participant

      I’m trying to facebook like your post…so much love to you, Hope. You’re amazing, and yes, please, pleats. and PLAIDS, for Frakks’ sake 🙂

    • #3370
      filmfixation
      Participant

      Hope,

      Dear me you are brave.

      I am continually so humbled by the superhero strength of women-women like you and your daughter. What we endure…its unbelievable. Right now I’m working at a production company that is in production on a documentary about two girls, about your daughter’s age at the time of her assault, who were both raped at parties while intoxicated. One of these girls committed suicide, and one has attempted but is still with us, currently in her senior year of high school. I share this because it is SO important for these stories to be told. By sharing your story here, you have started the irresistible chain reaction of empathy that is running through the veins of this forum. We now all know your story and will keep it safe and honor it. The more women share, the more we can build community. Community is the most insidious force in the face of patriarchy/violence/hate. It starts here.

    • #3386
      barbc624
      Participant

      Hope,

      I am in awe of you and your daughter and your family. No one should have to go through that. Thank you for sharing such a personal experience with us. I can’t help but think of my daughter and what I would have felt like if that had happened to her and I have tears in my eyes.

      I do believe though that it is through the sharing of such stories that we can all begin to come together and make the changes that we need to make.

      Terry I’m not sure if this is what you intended when you started this topic but you have clearly touched a nerve ( in a good way) juding by the number and quality of the responses this is generating.

  • #3363
    Terry Dresbach
    Keymaster

    [quote quote=3360]Dear All;
    Since I still can’t figure out how to get replies in the places I want to I’m going to just try and answer you all here at the end. (I think that’s where it will be!) First I have to say that I am stunned at the people who are on this blog (forum?) right now. I feel the heart and intelligence in all of these posts. I usually lurk more than post, because mostly it’s just not worth the contentious exchanges.
    I have to thank you for all of support. It really is something I have gotten very little of in my life. My daughter was raped when she was in 8th grade; she’d just turned 14. We were very private about it, but girls talk and the kind of judgment that we as parents and as a family received was pretty horrifying. Her rapist was 29 and it all went to trial after about a year of therapy and trying to get my daughter a bit more in one piece, and the jury acquitted him. He had hired a very expensive lawyer, and for a number of years on his home web site he mentioned, as advertisement that he had gotten a man off of raping a 14 year old girl. This was statutory rape, if nothing else.
    I rarely talk about this, my daughter is an amazing person today and our family became even closer through all of the trauma, so we’ve definitely thrived. But it’s always there.
    I grew up with three brothers. I knew their incredible sweetness when they were young, and I saw them brutalized as they got older. They are not small men, it’s just the culture. My oldest brother lost his wife to cancer almost two year ago and he’s so sad and I’m the next closest person to him in the world and I can hardly pull anything out of him. He’s just quietly suffering away.
    I’m saying this because I do know that women need to be tender in a special way with men. Claire’s refusal to be put off by all of Jamie’s evasions after his extreme trauma from BJR is something I think many of us identify with. And maybe as mothers, or potential mothers we do nurture others more than ourselves, or other women.
    All this to say that I do cringe from thinking about the episode at Wentworth Prison. I’ve read Outlander many times, and that part only twice. I skip right on to the part where Claire is sewing him up. (I hate the wolf scene too, partly because I love the idea of wolves in the wild and Claire’s battle with the wolf is so very graphic. DG certainly does get down and dirty.)
    Terry, you’ve done something amazing with this forum. I hope it can maintain this; thank goodness for moderators.
    Can we talk about fabric now?
    Hope[/quote]

    Hope, run to the section on pleating!!! 😉

    I am absolutely HONORED by what you have chosen to share with us. I hope that we can do lots of this kind of thing, as well as chat about our day, and our families, and what our kids and grandkids are wearing for Halloween. But the incredible ability women have to come together, and TALK to each other, about really meaningful things always amazes me. I hope this forum can encompass all of it, and thank you and everyone for being here.

    Not sure what is going on with your posts. I am just learning as well, but will try and take a look at it. Anyone else who can see anything, let us know!

    Terry

    • #3369
      elizlk
      Participant

      This forum discussion is just amazing. Thanks to all of you who’ve shared authentically.

      “Namaste” is the best I can say on that.

      On the question of getting responses in the right place, the one thing I notice is that you have to click on “reply” ABOVE the comments you’re trying to reply to if they are to post below that comment … but it’s not really clear, and this forum is moving so fast …

  • #3373
    patsyann55
    Participant

    This discussion brings up a point my therapist* made to me years ago. I grew up with an alcoholic father who got very touchy and kissy when he was drunk (which was often). The touching and kissing never went “all the way” so I swallowed my anger and told myself that I wasn’t really molested. My therapist reminded me that my father’s role in my life was to be a protector not a predator. Such a seemingly simple concept … but it helped change my life.

    So who are the protectors in our lives? The Outlander books really stand that question on its head and they don’t give us any easy answers. Kudos to everyone working on the series for carrying on that tradition. These blogs are all the evidence you guys need to know that your work is relevant and appreciated!

    *Interestingly enough, my therapist was a lovely old Methodist minister who reminds me of Rev. Wakefield…

    • This reply was modified 7 years, 8 months ago by patsyann55.
  • #3376
    barbc624
    Participant

    And this is what has always attracted me to the books, and why I push them at Ron. I have always felt that the book was about Claire. HER voice, HER story, HER POV, and I found that so refreshing. Add to that the fact that she is NEVER a victim, no matter what CRAZY shit happens, make it a very empowering story. Even after she loses Jamie ( I have said this a thousand times), she does not curl up into a ball, or become a broken woman, she becomes a frakking SURGEON. You cannot knock this woman down. But show me a woman in this book that isn’t tough as nails. JENNY? GEILLIS< JOCASTA, even LAOGHERIE, say what you will about her, she is no pushover. Strong, powerful women.
    I was very surprised to find out how many fans could care less about Claire, and focus only on Jamie and on the romance aspects of the story.
    [/quote]

    And why I pushed these books to my daughter when she was in high school! (She didn’t read them then – it took a book club she is in in LA to get her to do that.)

    As to Jamie, the first time I read Outlander I had a hard time seeing Jamie with Claire. He didn’t seem like he was quite up to her weight. That of course changed, thanks in no part to Claire’s influence on him, but I still have always seen him as the emotionally more dependent character of the two. Another example of Diana’s subversive gender switches, although a more subtle one.

  • #3382
    Terry Dresbach
    Keymaster

    [quote quote=3373]This discussion brings up a point my therapist made to me years ago. I grew up with an alcoholic father who got very touchy and kissy when he was drunk (which was often). The touching and kissing never went “all the way” so I swallowed my anger and told myself that I wasn’t really molested. My therapist reminded me that my father’s role in my life was to be a protector not a predator. Such a seemingly simple concept … but it helped change my life.

    So who are the protectors in our lives? The Outlander books really stand that question on its head and they don’t give us any easy answers. Kudos to everyone working on the series for carrying on that tradition. These blogs are all the evidence you guys need to know that your work is relevant and appreciated!
    [/quote]

    Fascinating question. I had a emotionally distant father, and a brilliant and very connected mother, who suffered from PTSD. I didn’t get much from my father, and I got a LOT (I cannot emphasize how much), from my mother, but I did not get protection. When she was having a PTSD moment, it was not safe. I think the only person in my life who has ever protected me is Ron, and he does it with great ferocity and tenderness.

    I am a tough woman, and sometimes I can still be that little two year old warrior child you see in my ABOUT section. He just blows that to smithereens. Scary, but good.

    Our kids know that no matter what, no matter what our job is to protect them (within reason). I never want them to feel like the only person they can really count on is themselves.

    • #3418
      patsyann55
      Participant

      And I bet you protect him as much as he protects you, but in your own unique feminine way. I’ll take on anyone who tries to hurt my husband and he is my biggest champion.

    • #3843
      GraceBWell
      Participant

      Terry,

      Your comments really touched me. I am truly warmed by the bravery and honesty of everyone’s truth expressed and as I keep reading I am more amazed. I find myself tearful with your last sentence “I never want them to feel like the only person they can really count on is themselves.” It really rung a bell for me. I started to wonder why and I think it has to do with my own aspirations as a mother to my (future) children that they WILL know that they can trust themselves above all else and know they are not alone. Your words inspire me and shine through wisdom and courage that is born from a mother that has reached for a new place in her lineage to grow.

      As a hopeful mother, some day to a living child (stillbirth & infertility a taboo subject also honestly dealt with in the books), I’ve experienced the trauma from a brutalizing father with a mother who could not see or defend her children because of her own fears, trauma and not knowing that she CAN protect herself and her children. My sister and I both growing up in this shroud of confusion, left us more vulnerable to more experiences of objectification and abuse from men that so many have echoed here in this forum. SO many women in my own sphere have felt this trauma – it reverberates through the ages into the present times across all social boundaries.

      I feel blessed , from where ever grace is granted, to also have had a bullish spirit from seemingly babyhood (if my aunties are right) and somehow not just survived but thrived. I have learned there are many enternal junctions in life that I made the choice (which can not be given but made) to move forward even at such a young age. Even in the darkest parts of my mind and soul that were so violated, some how I find ways to keep reaching for the lightness in my being and in the world. I can’t explain it but it’s deserving of deep gratitude. Especially since while lonely – I always knew that I was not alone as a child and a growing person, despite it all. At 39, I can see at every turn there has been a web – of mostly women, some kin, some not, some strangers, some men & especially my amazing husband – that included and welcomed me. They served and protected me as I do so fiercely for them. An unspeakable gift was being passed on so that I may one day learn to protect myself and cherish what is dear inside of me.

      Still a life (time) lesson but the courage to look directly & honor the dark corners inside is not just driven from my own desire – even though I do feel on a daily basis that I my time on earth is precious & deserves protection. But also created by the aspiration that I could one day serve my own children and others to not just know the warrior in themselves but also the lover. Your words for your children echoes my wish that we all may have the discernment to know how to join the world from a place of honor, respect, love and passion that is so intimately rooted uniquely inside of ourselves. And to learn this discernment we NEED each other – we need protection that you so fiercely guard for your children. No matter what that truth will always ring true and I admire you for it.

  • #3384
    Terry Dresbach
    Keymaster

    [quote quote=3376]
    And this is what has always attracted me to the books, and why I push them at Ron. I have always felt that the book was about Claire. HER voice, HER story, HER POV, and I found that so refreshing. Add to that the fact that she is NEVER a victim, no matter what CRAZY shit happens, make it a very empowering story. Even after she loses Jamie ( I have said this a thousand times), she does not curl up into a ball, or become a broken woman, she becomes a frakking SURGEON. You cannot knock this woman down. But show me a woman in this book that isn’t tough as nails. JENNY? GEILLIS< JOCASTA, even LAOGHERIE, say what you will about her, she is no pushover. Strong, powerful women.
    I was very surprised to find out how many fans could care less about Claire, and focus only on Jamie and on the romance aspects of the story.
    [/quote]

    And why I pushed these books to my daughter when she was in high school! (She didn’t read them then – it took a book club she is in in LA to get her to do that.)

    As to Jamie, the first time I read Outlander I had a hard time seeing Jamie with Claire. He didn’t seem like he was quite up to her weight. That of course changed, thanks in no part to Claire’s influence on him, but I still have always seen him as the emotionally more dependent character of the two. Another example of Diana’s subversive gender switches, although a more subtle one.
    [/quote]

    Oh, I agree with you completely on that point! She became a surgeon, he married Laogherie!

  • #3387
    rachely
    Participant

    Oh! Oh! One of my FAVORITE strong-woman moments is when Lizzie manages to marry both twins. That was awesome!

    • #3388
      Katie (@bunnums)
      Participant

      Oh, yes! Lizzie grows from meek to very self-assertive. While her marriage can be described as anything from unconventional to shocking, she has become a favorite character for me.

      Katie

    • #3397
      Hope
      Participant

      Yes, I loved who Lizzie grew into. A wonderful character.

  • #3389
    barbc624
    Participant

    [quote quote=3384]

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>barbc624 wrote:</div>

    [/quote]

    Oh, I agree with you completely on that point! She became a surgeon, he married Laogherie!
    [/quote]

    LOL I never thought of that but it is so true. And incidentally look who engineered that – another strong woman, his sister Jenny. Poor Jamie – he was never fated to become a male neanderthal. 😉

  • #3398
    Hope
    Participant

    I realize that we’ve wandered a bit from the subject of rape, but I wanted to say one more thing. Feminists tend to say (someone did above, I’m sorry I don’t remember who) that rape isn’t about sex, it’s about power and control, and I do agree that that is often a strong component. But I have seen on internet discussion boards (on men’s issues or others), and also actually had men say to me some version of the idea that for a woman not to be open to sex with a man who wants it from her (He did buy her dinner!) is like someone refusing to pass the sugar bowl if he’s wanting some for his cereal. There really is, in some men, a disconnect between the idea that it’s another human being’s body they’re wanting the use of, and it isn’t to be bought (except for our sisters who may or may not have the choice to sell). So sometimes a rape is really about a boy or a man taking the sex that he thinks he has a right to, and/or that it’s OK because it’s really not such a big deal for the female involved.

    • #3401
      filmfixation
      Participant

      Hope- I certainly dont speak for all the feminists out there (one of the great things about feminism as a belief system-we’re all made of different stuff-pretty beautiful actually), but i did write a post stipulating that rape says nothing about the person who is victimized by it. I didnt say that it had nothing to do with sex perse.

      My definition of sex is VERY simple-you can do whaaaaaaaeeeeevvvvver you want as long as its consensual. Rape doesnt fall in my own definition of sex, but that certainly doesn’t mean that the men you speak of are deluded into thinking they are experiening simple sexual desire.

      Does that make sense?

    • #3403
      barbc624
      Participant

      Edited because I hit post by accident and I need to get what I want to say right. Nothing bad – I love what you have to say and the fierceness you have for it. But I had an idea that was triggered by one of your comments and I need to figure out how to say it.

      • This reply was modified 7 years, 8 months ago by barbc624.
    • #3404
      filmfixation
      Participant

      Interesting-I’d love to hear more! What do you mean by “polarization and trend”?

      And dont you worry-its great that we all had different shades of opinion, thats what this space is about!

    • #3427
      filmfixation
      Participant

      Ah! Gotcha! I look forward to reading your thoughts.

    • #3462
      Hope
      Participant

      Dear Filmfixation;
      I was trying to add to the gamut of where the self-permission that rapists give themselves comes from, not saying that power isn’t a large component. I am a feminist, I want to say of course, but we know how many women shun the word. I was in Women’s Liberation in the late 60’s and 70’s, and it was a common thing then to hear that rape is just about power. Rape does require that the female (if the rapee is female) be disempowered in some way, through alcohol, lesser strength or mental coercion, or… It’s just that over the years I’ve seen and heard so many ‘nice’ men say quite astonishing things to me about when they feel they have a right to a woman’s body. Or that they should have the right. I hope that I did understand your point, and that you understand mine???
      Hope

  • #3417
    barbc624
    Participant

    [quote quote=3118]Yes! What i particularly enjoyed was that prior to the best episode ender, (take your hands off my wife) Claire had already saved HERSELF twice! Once by killing the redcoat, and then again by pulling herself out of her shock to survive into the next moment. [/quote]

    I love that Claire saves herself many times, as well as saving Jamie and others throughout the series.

  • #3420
    barbc624
    Participant

    [quote quote=3163]

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>filmfixation wrote:</div>
    Loving this too. Feel like I am exercising a part of my soul I dont give voice to often enough. Thanks women!

    Yes, thank all of you. Nice release.
    Well, this is what this board should be. It IS a female centric show, it should have a female-centric forum. I dealt with a lot of hostile male BSG old show fans. Some really nasty stuff. But for the most part this is a very refreshing fan base, because it is some. They want to love the show, want to support it and have been very welcoming. It is exciting.
    I think this can be a very interesting space.
    [/quote]

    I think this is already a very interesting space and it can only get more interesting. It reminds me of sitting around with my dorm mates in college many moons ago and talking for hours about this kind of stuff. The few people I know in real life (Other than my daughter) who watch Outlander are watching it for the romance and yes, hot Jamie. The people on this board are all smart and aware and really get it. I love it.

  • #3428
    barbc624
    Participant

    [quote quote=3404]Interesting-I’d love to hear more! What do you mean by “polarization and trend”?

    And dont you worry-its great that we all had different shades of opinion, thats what this space is about!
    [/quote]

    So what I am struggling to say is about labels. I am sure I have been a feminist since before I was born – I couldn’t help it given the women in my family who were all very strong and smart. I was the one girl amongst three brothers, yet I was never made to feel that I was anything less than them. If anything the expectations for me were set higher. It was a given that I was going to go to college. Girly things were never me. I played at being Wonder Woman and Supergirl as a child and saved the world many a time over, never thinking that there was anything strange about a girl doing that. I remember the 70’s and 80’s and Gloria Steinem and MS magazine and yes feminism. (When I got married I was fortunate to find a man who was comfortable enough in his own skin to not be threatened by me. To this day he tells everyone that I am the brains in our partnership and he is sincere in saying that, even though it is not true. Like Jamie and Claire we are equals each with their own strengths and we are both the better for it.)

    And I remember thinking that in 20 years or so we wouldn’t have to worry about being feminists because we would all be equal.

    It didn’t work out that way. Instead the media and culture started sending the message that it had. Things had changed. Women could have it all and do it all. (Of course they were being paid 60 cents on the dollar to what men made, they were working themselves into exhaustion to do it all, and the few women who made it into the C suite were really only tokens.) But lo and behold there was no need to be feminists anymore and it became a dirty word. Feminism became a label used to put down and devalue those who called themselves feminists and the mass of people accepted that.

    I hate that we live in a society where labels have now become pervasive and are used to polarize and divide us. “Liberals” and “conservatives” can’t or won’t talk to each other. Feminists are man hating emasculating bitches. etc etc etc.

    I refuse to buy into that idea.I know many good men who are the first to step up and call other men on their sexist behavior. And unfortunately I know women who embrace the derogatory labels given to women who dare to challenge the patriarchal system we live under.

    So I have come to think that maybe we need to reject ALL labels be they good or bad. We are humans and we are complex creatures. How can you label a human being? We are each one unique, even in our similarities. We change over the course of our lives and even from day to day.

    So I respect those who call themselves feminists, yet I have come to believe we need a new name, one that is so broad and general that it cannot be used to shove people into a box that can then be painted with a Day Glo “Danger” sign. I think of myself as a humanist. A humanist is not defined by gender or color or religion or any other of the labels that can be used to polarize people. A humanist is simply another human being who does their best to respect and care for other human beings,for the beautiful and wonderful world we live in, and for all of its various creatures. A humanist rejects injustice no matter who it is perpetrated upon.

    I see Jamie and Claire as humanists. In Claire’s dedication as a physician and a healer. In her refusal to submit to the prescribed role of a woman, both in 18th century Scotland and in 20th Century America.In Jamie’s acceptance of Claire for who she is and in his refusal to stop fighting for what he believes is right despite the personal costs to himself. I see it in Jamie’s recognition of the gift he is receiving when he kills an animal to feed his family. I see it in Claire’s conflict over the two men in her life and her desire to do what is right for them and for her daughter even though there is a high cost to herself. Claire and Jamie refuse to be defined by the society they live in, and in so doing they are by the very nature of their lives subversive to the perceived order of things.

    And isn’t it interesting how the word subversive comes up so often when discussing Outlander. Every culture has a narrative and in order to change the culture you have to challenge and change the narrative. In a very real way Outlander does exactly that. The book has resonated with millions of people all over the world for 20+ years and now the tv show seems set to do the same thing. And the beauty of it is that it is doing so disguised as a piece of pop culture, something not to be taken seriously by those who are resistant to change. “Oh that women’s show about guys in kilts, something for the bored housewives…” said patronizingly.

    Little do they know. We are the stories that we tell and I’d love to see some of the tired old stories replaced by new ones such as Outlander. Maybe then we will truly begin to see the change we need to see.

    • #3456
      filmfixation
      Participant

      Barb! I just spent an hour replying to you and when I hit submit, the page refreshed and logged me out! Ugh. I’ll re-write my reponse later today when I’m not fueled with righteous indignation…

      love,
      robyn

  • #3431
    Terry Dresbach
    Keymaster

    [quote quote=3398]I realize that we’ve wandered a bit from the subject of rape, but I wanted to say one more thing. Feminists tend to say (someone did above, I’m sorry I don’t remember who) that rape isn’t about sex, it’s about power and control, and I do agree that that is often a strong component. But I have seen on internet discussion boards (on men’s issues or others), and also actually had men say to me some version of the idea that for a woman not to be open to sex with a man who wants it from her (He did buy her dinner!) is like someone refusing to pass the sugar bowl if he’s wanting some for his cereal. There really is, in some men, a disconnect between the idea that it’s another human being’s body they’re wanting the use of, and it isn’t to be bought (except for our sisters who may or may not have the choice to sell). So sometimes a rape is really about a boy or a man taking the sex that he thinks he has a right to, and/or that it’s OK because it’s really not such a big deal for the female involved.[/quote]

    Oh that has always been one of the justifications, and once again it is the woman’s fault! She wore the clothes that made me do it, I bought her dinner!
    It is still about possession, control and domination. Otherwise ALL men would rape women if they were wearing a short skirt or didn’t put out after a meal.
    I do not believe a woman is responsible, but knowing that some men think this way, it is one of the reasons I never really dated. I think I have been on two dates in my life, and one of them ended up with the man demanding his due. I don’t like the idea that the man always buys the meal or pays for the evening. I think it helps to create an imbalance and set up. I never liked the concept of “dating”. Guy picks you up, opens the car door, feeds you and then returns you and gets his reward. Might be a kiss that is a promise of more at a further point,but the whole thing is icky for me.

    • #3435
      rachely
      Participant

      I’ve never really thought about it, but I was raped when I was 12. Precocious, already liking boys, menstruating, and with boobs, but definitely not a woman. It was rape, to be sure, but it was also seduction. Wrong on every level, but seduction (probably some sort of fine line between pederasty and rape at the age I was–I was definitely above the age of reason, but still a girl).

      But then opposite of what you just said after that I would put out for pretty much anyone I liked (thankfully no one else ever tried to force or demand from me) because I was already “ruined” so I might as well just do it. I was just the other day trying to decide when I had my first orgasm where there was another person involved and I’m going to guess it was my senior year in high school.

      Once I accepted what happened as wrong, as not my fault, I became oddly at peace with it. It made me who I am today, and I rather like me. And it made me willing to fight. I’m not glad it happened, but I’m glad at who I am now.

      And I have only had one cup of coffee, I’m rambling about I don’t know what.

      ETA: I never told anyone, so there was no trial, no judgement other than my own. Obviously made a difference since I only had to heal myself.

      • This reply was modified 7 years, 7 months ago by rachely.
    • #3439
      rachely
      Participant

      Hmmm, how come it won’t let me edit more than once? Alas, I shall have to reply to myself.

      ETA 2: This was 28 years ago, so I speak of it with a lot of years behind me

      ETA 3: YMMV, I’m not judging how any one else decides to heal, or live, or not live, or whatever. I’m just speaking for me. Though I worked for a while at the Holocaust Memorial Museum in D.C. for years, and if hanging out with survivors taught me anything it’s that often living your life well is the best response to trauma. You can still have nightmares, still miss what you’ve lost, but you can’t change what happened, but you can laugh, and dance, and LIVE.

    • #3464
      Hope
      Participant

      I’m having trouble getting the reply function to work, but I wanted to respond to Barb about feminist versus humanist. I do consider myself a humanist, and when I’m talking about who I am in the world to a new person, I do use that way of defining myself. The problem for me is that I still feel that I want to identify as a feminist as well, that women’s unique issues need to be acknowledged as separate and that it has been too easy in the past for feminists to put others’ needs before theirs. This happened in the United States during the anti-slavery movement. Women’s rights were shunted aside, and who is to say it was wrong, but then if we as women always choose the others before ourselves, will we ever reach our goals? Or is this a part of what it is to be a woman? To sacrifice? Just putting it out there, it’s not like there is one right answer. (I am also a cultural relativist, that bogeyman of many these days.) (I’m smiling as I say this, I would love to laugh about all of this even as we say things from our hearts.)

    • #3492
      barbc624
      Participant

      Hope and filmfixation;

      I am a feminist

        and

      a humanist which to me is a broader category that encompasses more than just feminism. It’s more inclusive and harder to denigrate and I think we need more of that. Our society likes to label people and groups and then use those labels to divide and polarize people so why not make that as difficult as possible?

      I’m sorry if you took that as a criticism of feminism and those who identify themselves as feminists but I don’t want to label myself in a way that creates a divide between myself and those who have been conditioned against “feminists and their agenda”. I’ve found I can often make headway with those who are not bad people but rather ill informed that way. They will listen to what I have to say if a label doesn’t get in their way, and I can often get them thinking about things in a different and better way. To me that is more important than having them accept feminism. For example, if I can get even a few people to view rape differently than it being the woman’s fault I count that a victory.

      I’ve come to believe that change starts from a few people effecting little changes which ripple out and multiply until suddenly a tipping point is reached and the big change is there. To me Outlander is making more than a few little ripples and I hope to see them multiply and contribute to that tipping point.

  • #3461
    Terry Dresbach
    Keymaster

    You all are amazing.

    • #3489
      janschurr
      Participant

      [quote quote=3373]This discussion brings up a point my therapist* made to me years ago. I grew up with an alcoholic father who got very touchy and kissy when he was drunk (which was often). The touching and kissing never went “all the way” so I swallowed my anger and told myself that I wasn’t really molested. My therapist reminded me that my father’s role in my life was to be a protector not a predator. Such a seemingly simple concept … but it helped change my life.

      So who are the protectors in our lives? The Outlander books really stand that question on its head and they don’t give us any easy answers. Kudos to everyone working on the series for carrying on that tradition. These blogs are all the evidence you guys need to know that your work is relevant and appreciated!

      You hit a nerve with me. My father abused me, also, although it “stopped short” of physical assault…but the trust was destroyed. From the age of 13 on, I went to great pains to ensure I was never alone with him. I never told anyone until I told my husband after we were married, and it took me many years of building myself before I could truly trust a man. When my very successful daughter fell apart in vet school 2 years ago, and ultimately revealed she had been raped at age 12, I struggled with not protecting her, although it was not something I could have prevented. (stranger). I know of three of her close friends who have been assaulted and escaped, or been raped. To people who say “there are too many rapes in Outlander” I want to say – open your eyes. Even women who have not been physically raped have had their spirit raped. My daughter is working through her pain, and has the help of therapists and friends, because at least the subject can be discussed today.

      But I find that the scene of Loaghaire being brought to be strapped in Hall just a disturbing from a feminist viewpoint, and wonder why I don’t see people complaining about it as much as they do Jamie strapping Claire. Why is she being punished? For “untoward behavior with men”. Why is this so bad? Because it diminishes her value to the family (i.e., her father) in that it lowers her value as a virgin bride (so that paternity of children can be assured.) She is chattel, as were most women in that time period. Her physical punishment would not be worse than Claire’s – and the argument could be made that what Claire’s actions endangered so many more people. I do not know if it is because she is not a well-liked character and Jamie/Claire are (and isn’t that a sad commentary on punishment!) or what. I do know I am looking forward (odd to write that!) to see how this is handled, as we have not seen the development of Jamie as much as we do in the books. It will be interesting to see how many non-book fans scream/don’t scream about this.

      Wentworth will be even worse. This is not “just” a physical rape, but a deliberate, total destruction of another’s soul. Perhaps men watching it will squirm and there can be discussions of casual rape of women in shows like GoT? As much as we teach our daughters to “be safe”, even more time needs to be spent teaching our sons that they do not have any “rights” to access to a woman sexually. Rape culture, which i am learning much more about now that my daughter is talking about her rape and bringing this to discussions, can only be ended when we teach our children respect for other humans.
      Speaking of how women are shown in cable series, here’s my two big pet peeves: powerful man, having sex with a unimportant woman. He is clothed, she is naked, and he dismisses her when something more important happens – a message arrives, etc. She rarely has a name or a “face”. BUT SHE’S NAKED, and he appears to not even have his flies open. She is servicing him. But the same often happens with characters that are supposed to have a relationship. We see the woman disrobe, and if it is a period drama, she has pubic hair (although not leg/armpit hair). She mounts the man, who is still fully dressed, no sign his flies are open. This reduces her from lover to a woman servicing a man in a purely sexual manner. What is it with cable costume dramas? We have to show female public hair (even if we all know it’s a merkin) just because it is cable and we can? I tell you, this is why my husband and I found the wedding night to be so sensual. I do not need to see genitalia, I know it’s there. This episode was extremely powerful in that it showed the evolution of a relationship from forced by circumstance to together by choice and the acting/directing was spot on.
      Sorry to ramble so much. Just my thoughts.

    • #3715
      Gael
      Participant

      I never had trouble with the “discipling” scene because it is so contextual to the eighteenth century and I used discipline before seeing in this discussion because that is what is and I agree there is some equality in it. . In the “domination” scene when Claire says Jamie is hurting her and he continues [not when she says he’s crushing her and he responds] he really does want to possess her essence–she will call him master–but he cannot possess her without losing himself. It is the male instinct to “own” that is so troubling; I think his losing himself and her joining in the passion redeems the scene. Their union is complete and mutual. I was raped by a burglar on my 22nd birthday ( many years ago) and rape has nothing to do with sex–it is a crime of terrorism. I also defended sexual harassers for many years. I finally said to my husband, ” I cannot do another s**k my d*** case.” I would have to sit impassively as opposing counsel inevitably played a tape recording of my client saying something to that effect–usually exactly those words. Now I teach college students (both sexes) who believe women bring about their own rape. Barb, my niece was an actress in Hollywood ( her best friend still is and works frequently) and they have discussed this issue frequently. Seeing my niece bare her breasts in a film was quite an experience. I, also, do not know how to get this in the right place. It is amazing and comforting to hear all the brave, strong voices here. As for the question of “Are you a feminist?” very few of the student will raise their hands. I then ask, “Do you think women should have the right to vote?” Do you think that women should equal rights to men in society and in the workplace?” All the embrace these questions. the answer: “Guess what, you are a feminist.” Now I am rambling.

  • #3465
    AmazingJulz
    Participant

    I’m really loving all of this discussion, too! Sorry am late to the party, but life, ya know?

    I’ve thought for some time the Jamie/BJR scene at Wentworth was so much more than just a simple rape like Claire’s, which was pretty basic and matter-of-fact. It was much more a psychological torture with pain and rape, keeping Claire and her memory front and center the whole time. That’s why Jamie needed her to allow him to fight at the abbey, since he had pledged not to and didn’t for her sake. BJR used his love of Claire against him, and although Jamie wanted to push her away, she wouldn’t go. In that, she became as stubborn as any Fraser. She figured out how to find grace and give it to Jamie! So far in the story, Claire’s been accosted in the hallway by clansmen, near raped by BJR at first meeting; near raped by Harry and pal in the glen and roughed up sexually by BJR at Wentworth. She does have some experience dealing with a sexual violence mentality clearly demonstrated in both book and show.

    The v. passionate Leoch scene after Claire worked herself up to a tumultuous uproar of jealousy over Laigohaire and Jamie forced her to accept him? IMHO, one of the best scenes in the relationship. He holds out the ring, and everything that goes with it, and SHE ACCEPTS. He doesn’t want to hear her jealousy about Laigohaire and although he always accepts Frank, this was the “I’m going to REALLY distract you from thinking of him while we’re mmmph-ing For-evah.” I don’t see it as a near rape, it was posed as a question: Will you have me? The description is perfect – she goes along, complains a little and then responds as an equal right back. Epic storytelling from Diana and a marriage is truly forged.

    The show has more than met my expectations for adaptation – brilliant work to make this relationship real from the finest source material. In selling these books as great reads over the years, I’ve developed a shorthand to describe them: They set romance novels on their ass by making the man a virgin, the heroine a badass who humanly expresses desire for love; the love triangle shows JAMMF was a much more Enlightened Humanist than Frank (btw, love the bit in the show with Tobias saying “Mrs. FRANK RANDALL” and JAMMF toasting “CLAIRE Fraser,” that was a very nice bit that sums it up perfectly!).

    Both men are helpless to Claire’s drive for her career, but only Frank makes her feel like shit about leaving Brianna to do it (Ok, JAMMF wasn’t there, but he would have been all about it if he had been). Frank was very much a product of the 20th c sexism and DG shows sometimes he really wanted to control Claire and was scared of letting her be herself. Jamie demands she be herself.

    Hope, I’m so sorry for your experience. Living well, like the Holocaust victims, is truly the best revenge. A moment of violence doesn’t define the rest of your life unless you let it. Should we all have a Claire to clear our minds of the poison others have introduced!

    The state of Grace at the abbey is a wonderful passage for any life’s challenges, like, say, answering the 10,947th time what anyone wears for undies (Jesus, that’s a lazy reporter).

    I love the characters that are coming into their own on the show – am tres nervous about JAMMF’s POV from Wentworth. In the book, it was in small snippets and not all at once. I truly respect Ron for going for the imagined over the real drippy stuff on the flogging — I’m a huge Hitchcock fan and appreciate the mind exercises Ron is bringing to the material! It’s so much better to have your mind fill in the blanks than just out there.

    Rambling, just shoot me.

  • #3467
    sonyakhanum
    Participant

    Hi all,

    I’m sorry I’m late to this discussion. This thread is amazing and goes to show that there should be academic courses about the books and tv show (if there isn’t one already)! You could write a thesis about these issues.

    I agree with Hope that even with humanism you’d need feminism. I think it’s important to understand the historical and current meaning of “humanism”, which is essentially a philosophical stance rejecting the notion of a divine and emphasizing rational and scientific thought over faith. Sometimes this can get confused with how the term “humanist” is used to include a stance that all are equal no matter what. Also, feminism isn’t just for women and about gender, though “society” tends to make it about women and gender (early feminism though had a lot to do with women’s issues, but with the successive waves of feminism, it has evolved to cover greater issues). What feminism is sometimes concerned with is the problem with patriarchy – in which men (or white, heterosexual men) have the most power and that this hurts everyone, including men.

    The books and the show have been fantastic in portraying strong female characters who don’t let patriarchy hold them down, whether it’s with the decisions they’ve made (Claire’s career) or their relationships with others and men. The use of sexuality and sexual relations to demonstrate this is brilliant – using something that either objectifies women or is withheld from women as a tool to demonstrate female power. I love how much the show and Ron has respected this, it’s such a central part of Claire’s story and her relationships with Jamie and Frank.

    My husband and I the other day were talking about female characters on TV and how awesome Ron and the producers/writers have been with strong female characters in BSG, Helix and Outlander in which these female characters don’t fit certain stereotypical molds of women (the wife, the nurturer, the sweet one, the b****, the cunning one, etc.). These characters fit most if not all these molds and then some, they’re much more complicated and yet more relateable than the female characters you see on other shows. It’s pretty awesome I gotta say and it’s pretty exciting!

    I’m reading Voyager at the moment and haven’t read the books beyond that yet. I don’t meant to change the subject and maybe this requires another thread, if so let me know. But I wonder about the portrayal of race in the books and how it will be done on the show. I was specifically thinking of Mr. Willoughby. Are there any thoughts on that?

    Thanks!

    • #3487
      Hope
      Participant

      Sonya? I assume that’s your name. I appreciated your post in general, but specifically I do want to answer your question about Mr. Willoughby. I did always find the way DG described him and referred to him quite jarring. “The little Chinese”. He was an interesting character, but in many ways I thought he was much more of a stereotype than most of her other characters. His backstory was very interesting, but he was always sort of alien, as if we couldn’t quite get into his head. (I also had issues with the book’s ‘little rat-faced Murtagh’ and I’m so happy the TV series has characterized him differently. I am a big fan of TV Murtagh.) I don’t know that I’ve ever seen DG answer a question about Mr. Willoughby, I’d be curious to hear her thoughts about him at this point.

      • This reply was modified 7 years, 7 months ago by Hope.
    • #3491
      rachely
      Participant

      I don’t know that I’ve ever seen DG answer a question about Mr. Willoughby, I’d be curious to hear her thoughts about him at this point.

      I think she talks about the whole “short” issue in the Outlandish Companion. Basically saying that he WAS short compared to both Jamie and Claire.

    • #3574
      sonyakhanum
      Participant

      Thanks Hope. The portrayal of Mr. Willoughby is something that I’ve been having trouble with myself.

  • #3490
    AmazingJulz
    Participant

    I seem to recall a post somewhere, sometime, where Diana said she needed a way to transport Jamie overseas without dying of seasickness, and Mr. Willoughby popped in with acupuncture. In the same post, she said he might pop back up again. You never know with Diana, unless you SEE a character dead, they aren’t dead!

  • #3495
    barbc624
    Participant

    [quote quote=3465]I’m really loving all of this discussion, too! Sorry am late to the party, but life, ya know?

    The v. passionate Leoch scene after Claire worked herself up to a tumultuous uproar of jealousy over Laigohaire and Jamie forced her to accept him? IMHO, one of the best scenes in the relationship. He holds out the ring, and everything that goes with it, and SHE ACCEPTS. He doesn’t want to hear her jealousy about Laigohaire and although he always accepts Frank, this was the “I’m going to REALLY distract you from thinking of him while we’re mmmph-ing For-evah.” I don’t see it as a near rape, it was posed as a question: Will you have me? The description is perfect – she goes along, complains a little and then responds as an equal right back. Epic storytelling from Diana and a marriage is truly forged.

    Both men are helpless to Claire’s drive for her career, but only Frank makes her feel like shit about leaving Brianna to do it (Ok, JAMMF wasn’t there, but he would have been all about it if he had been). Frank was very much a product of the 20th c sexism and DG shows sometimes he really wanted to control Claire and was scared of letting her be herself. Jamie demands she be herself.

    [/quote]

    Yes and add to the Leoch sex scene the ending lines where Jamie tells her “I am your master…but you are mine” and Claire thinking to herself “Smart lad. Frank never did get that.” That right there is it for me.

    Actually Jamie is all about accepting her career in their later life. 🙂

  • #3552
    ValhallaLilly
    Participant

    You all are so amazing at being able to cohesively put thoughts together. I have all these points I want to add when I read through everything but none of them make sense when I try and type them out!
    Ah well I will have replies ready for these topics by season 3 at the earliest!

    • #3567
      Hope
      Participant

      Short posts are completely fine. And I don’t think anyone here will judge you on how you write. Speaking for myself, if I don’t understand something you say, I’ll ask, OK? I’m just a participant here, but this is how this forum feels to me.

    • #3648
      sonyakhanum
      Participant

      This is such an amazing discussion and I am in awe of all of you, who have brought forward unique experiences and perspectives on these important issues. Thank you for sharing them.

  • #3562
    DMacKnight
    Participant

    Really enjoying these comments and the discussion. Great to see so many diverse, female minds on display!
    Terrific article about why it’s so important to do things differently in TV and Movie-land.

  • #3563
    DMacKnight
    Participant

    Not sure why the link didn’t show up, but here it is in the text.
    http://screencrush.com/monday-morning-critic-outlander/

    • #3566
      Hope
      Participant

      I agree, a really good article. Let’s hope this trend continues.

    • #3586
      elizlk
      Participant

      Another good post (http://screencrush.com/monday-morning-critic-outlander/) – thanks for sharing it, DMacKnight.
      Lots more popping on gender roles – saw a brief blurb from Gillian Anderson on sexism and how it’s so baked in people don’t even notice … we’re noticing and others are starting to. First step toward change is awareness that there’s a problem.

      • This reply was modified 7 years, 7 months ago by elizlk.
    • #3590
      barbc624
      Participant

      Another interesting article – this one about Wonder Woman’s origins and how that didn’t work out as intended. Fits right in with this subject and I thought it was really interesting – I had no idea of the historical background.

      http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/09/22/last-amazon

    • #3629
      Hope
      Participant

      Barb;

      Wow, what a great article. I had missed seeing it. My grandmother graduated from the University of Chicago with a degree in Latin and Greek at the beginning of WWII. She taught high school until she married my grandfather, an organic chemist who helped developed synthetic rubber. My mother was born in 1920, the year women got the vote in this country. My grandmother divorced my grandfather in 1930 for having an affair, and worked through the depression, raising two children with very little help from my grandfather. My mother was a feminist her whole life, as well as working for world peace and for civil rights. I was in the women’s liberation movement in college (we were called women’s libbers as a sort of smear, and nobody seemed to know what a feminist was). One of the biggest things we were pushing for was a model daycare center for the University campus. It was a bad idea, we were told, because it would encourage more women to work outside the home. And a day care center could never be as good for a child as being home with their mother. (I have a lot to say about that!) We never did get a day care center; this was in the early 70’s. It was years later that a day care center was finally started, but not the model we had hoped for, with interns and professionals working out how to make it work best for all involved.
      And Psychologists were still arguing about whether a woman could be considered a mature woman if she only had clitoral orgasms rather than vaginal orgasms. When the big push to pass the Equal Rights Amendment was going on, one of the main spokespersons against it was a woman named Phyllis Schlafley. (SP?) She was a lawyer, which would not have been allowed except for all the work of generations of feminists! And her main argument seemed to be that if the Equal Rights Amendment passed, your little girls would have to go into bathrooms with big dangerous men. Which is scary, if it had been true. I still don’t understand, after all these years, just why so many people (men and women) hate the idea that women are equal and ought to have the same right to run their own life that men do. I am not and have never been a woman who thinks there are no differences between the sexes. (And precious few white men can jump (joke).) But those differences have been used to hold women back from the many ways we might choose to live, without even being able to test the arbitrary boundaries set for us. I do not hold men in general responsible for this. I do think it’s harder for men to understand women’s issues, but it is our society (and some men and some women) who have done their best to keep women in old roles. I still don’t get it.

  • #3571
    michellibell
    Participant

    [quote quote=3298]Thats fair. I was actually responding to the women who said things like, “when I first read it I had no idea why it was such a big deal” I’m not quoting anyone, just that general tone. And again, they arent wrong, but I cant help but feel uncomfortable with that response, which is also just my personal reaction. [/quote]
    I think I was one who said something similar to that.
    It’s that my first exposure to that scene was reading and hearing about it from other women. These women were so upset that Jamie was a wife-abuser, etc etc that they just couldn’t get past that scene and couldn’t understand why anyone likes those books.
    So I went into the book expecting this insanely misogynistic man beating his wife… and that’s just not what it was. So in that sense, I really didn’t have a problem with the scene. I think 1). Jamie explains to Claire why he has to do this 2). it’s historically accurate 3). she fights him on it 4). and swears she’ll kill him if he ever does it again.
    If that scene were to be played out in 2014, we’d all grab pitchforks and kill him for touching Claire. But it was all he knew how to do at the time…. but what is great about DG, is that she really, truly allows her characters to grow and learn. By the end of the books, we can’t even imagine Jamie doing that to Claire.

    On another issue – and someone else brought it up in an earlier post – I’m just not sure that Black Jack Randall isn’t capable of love. Or an emotion similar to love (affection)? He goes out on quite a limb to help his brother, staking his entire career and his life to get brother help.

    • #3573
      rachely
      Participant

      On another issue – and someone else brought it up in an earlier post – I’m just not sure that Black Jack Randall isn’t capable of love. Or an emotion similar to love (affection)? He goes out on quite a limb to help his brother, staking his entire career and his life to get brother help.

      I don’t agree with everyone who says BJR is a psychopath–since part of that diagnosis is that the person can be totally charming, and clearly Claire and Jamie don’t find him charming. And the other part of it is that a psychopath should have no feels for anyone, and I’m with you, I think he loves his brother. I mean, to go all Godwin’s Law about it: Hitler loved dogs.

    • #3591
      barbc624
      Participant

      I thought the same thing and mentioned it in an earlier post. I like that DG’s characters are not cardboard cutouts of “villains” and “heroes” but are complex characters with lots of shades of grey.

    • #3653
      Hope
      Participant

      Barb;

      I agree; BJR is not a simple man. I love that DG speaks, laughingly, about how BJR comes right out of her. We are all such complex beings and it is such a pleasure when we (I) get to read a book that doesn’t simplify us all to the point of silliness. I read a number of author’s blogs, and many of those authors speak of having the characters start to tell the author who they are and what they’ll do next, much like DG’s experience with Claire. I certainly have no simple explanation for BJR, and his love for his brother (was it you who brought that up?) certainly muddies the waters even more.

    • #3649
      laplane
      Participant

      hope, what your family history exemplifies is the very slow pace of change, but change there was. your grandmother set a wonderful example for the women in her family, thereby helping to accelerate your own pace. but the world moves much more slowly. in my own family i see, now that i can reflect back from my 82 years, that my father, an orthodox jew with a strong attachment to torah law, actually demonstrated in his behavior towards my mother a kind of respect which is not endorsed by the torah. my mother was the leader in our family in all important respects, mostly with my father’s full agreement and cooperation. in fact, were it not for my mother i wouldn’t be around. when my father objected back in 1938 to my mother’s insistence that we get out of germany NOW [he believed that hitler was just a passing phenomenon], she told him that she was going to pack herself and her two daughters up and leave whether or not he would come along. he did come along and we’re here. we learned later that the day after we left our strongly nazi small town, the local gestapo goons came to the house to arrest my father. to me that’s an example of feminism long before the movement itself got started. your grandmother’s example occurred even earlier. one of the current examples of female equality that gives me much joy is women being accepted as cantors and rabbis in many synagogues, including some modern orthodox synagogues. that, given the typical rigidity of institutional religion, is real progress! so let’s not be discouraged by the slow pace.

    • #3652
      Hope
      Participant

      laplane;
      Wow,that’s a story. I have friends with similar stories. I think it’s so very difficult to accept how hateful people are capable of being, even if it’s right in your face. Thank goodness for your mother’s smarts/intuition/clarity. My husband was with a Jewish friend at a Scientific meeting in Germany a few years ago. The speaker/moderator was wondering why the biological sciences were not stronger in Germany. Our friend said “well, if you kick all the Jews out…”. I had a ballet teacher who was gay, so talented, lost him to Aids/HIV in the early days. We lose so much when we reject what is different. And men still see women as different. I like science fiction among other genres. I have more than once read reviews of scifi novels on Audible that complain because there are women in the story. I am not discouraged about the progress, I’m more just baffled by why we don’t help and encourage each other rather than squelch. The eternal innocent, in some ways. I loved your sharing

  • #3572
    michellibell
    Participant

    [quote quote=3321]totally agree. Jaime’s discomfort and then overriding sense of ultimate fondness for Lord John is a fairly subversive example of male friendship in the 18th century. zillions of points t herself for giving John so much agency and voice in the books- not to mention his own series :)[/quote]
    Yes yes yes!
    I love Lord John. If he weren’t a fictional character, and you know, gay, I’d marry him.

    • #3655
      laplane
      Participant

      hope, one of the benefits i’ve experienced in all sites related to outlander, including this one, is the sharing by readers of experiences. we find each other’s stories not only interesting but often connected to our own experiences. it beats group therapy and is sure alot cheaper! to get back to the issue, i’ve always objected to the designation of jews as the “chosen people”. but it occurs to me that given what jews have been subjected to over the centuries, the concept of chosenness can be taken to mean chosen to demonstrate that there is so much evil in the world and to raise consciousness of the need to fight evil. i see the history of dark-skinned people – subjected for centuries to color-based racism – to have the same potential for teaching right from wrong to those who need the lesson, which in some ways, includes all of us, albeit mainly at an unconscious level. so let’s keep on sharing and see what we can learn from each other!

  • #3644
    michellibell
    Participant

    [quote quote=3590]Another interesting article – this one about Wonder Woman’s origins and how that didn’t work out as intended. Fits right in with this subject and I thought it was really interesting – I had no idea of the historical background.

    http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/09/22/last-amazon

    [/quote]

    A great quote from this article:
    “ ‘Wonder Woman’ was conceived by Dr. Marston to set up a standard among children and young people of strong, free, courageous womanhood; to combat the idea that women are inferior to men, and to inspire girls to self-confidence and achievement in athletics, occupations and professions monopolized by men” because “the only hope for civilization is the greater freedom, development and equality of women in all fields of human activity.” Marston put it this way: “Frankly, Wonder Woman is psychological propaganda for the new type of woman who should, I believe, rule the world.”

  • #3660
    nolakate
    Participant

    while I understand the plot lines and the historical reality of rape in that time, I cringe reading them-sometimes just skip ahead. I was a 911 operator for 10 years in a major city. if I never have to take another call from someone who has been raped, it will be too soon. it is impossible to explain the pain, humiliation, fear, embarrassment in the voices of these callers. and the proper responses to get them help is almost as hard. I believe that even in that time and place, rape was the same as now – an obscene violation of another human

    • #3680
      barbc624
      Participant

      nolokate;

      I don’t know how you were able to hang on doing what you did for so long, it must have been so emotionally draining.I understand completely what you are saying and you need to do what is best for you with the rape scenes, there’s no shame in that. You’ve been too close to the realuity for too long and don’t need that reminder.

      The fact that rape is still so pervasive and swept under the rug is all the more reason that rape scenes such as the one with the redcoats in “Both Sides Now” need to be shown. That scene did not glamorize or make light of the attempted rape as so many movies, books and shows do. Our mainstream news media consistently fails in showing the truth of rape. The only way to change society’s attitudes towards rape is to hold it up in the light of day and expose all of the obscenity of it. If it takes entertainment media to do it then that’s what we need to do.

  • #3695
    nolakate
    Participant

    thanks for your thoughts barb. I hadn’t thought of it that way. Diana’s books do not glorify rape like bodice rippers do, and show the emotions a woman feels. and as for male rape-most of pedophilia is rape of a male CHILD so it might clarify that for some viewers too. I love the books, and I think the video adaptation is fantastic. just hope they can do all the books. if the Simpsons can be on the air this many years, they can surely do 8 (9!) of Claire and Jamie. and I think they’ll make a fortune in DVD sales.

    thank you again for giving me a different way to think of the scenes

  • #3754
    rachely
    Participant

    Once upon a time, like 100 gazillion years ago (okay, 18) I was getting my Ph.D. in the sociology of American Jews (more useless than a degree in English, Theatre or Journalism). I read a book that has stuck with me for this many years. It was a book about American Jewish women who chose (usually through marriage) to join the Orthodox Jewish community. The reason most of these women gave about why they were willing to ‘give up’ some of their marital rights (I would argue that Jewish women have always have more rights than most Christian/Catholic women, but we’ll ignore that for now) was that they were tired. It was the early 90s that these women would have been answering survey questions, but they were tired of fights about whose job it was to unpack the dishwasher, who should stay home with the children, who should do X, or Y or Z. They found it comforting to go ‘back’ to a world where there was no question–it just WAS. They would stay home, they would cook, they would unpack the dishwasher, they would do X, Y or Z whilst their husbands did A, B or C. They didn’t feel ‘lesser’ for these choices, they just felt relieved to end the fighting.

    So, sometimes when I read the Outlander books–especially the later ones–I think about that article and that survey, and wonder how much of what we like in these books come from that same place. The idea that men were men. Men defended, men hunted and men were, well, men. Yet at the same time we all live in the 20th-21st century and don’t WANT to feel those things. We want to feel liberated and free from typical gender roles. So we love Jamie because he is A Man. But we love Claire because she challenges that. It allows us to feel both things at once.

    • #3755
      laplane
      Participant

      rachel, for me the key word in your interesting post is “chose”. i’ve always had problems with that dichotomy around feminism [or any label actually] that decrees that one be either a total feminist or no feminist at all. by that standard, women who choose orthodoxy in order to enter into the particular role for jewish women that orthodox judaism is said to demand [i’m not so sure that’s entirely so anymore] are deemed not to be acting on feminist principles. yet, the fact they they themselves choose this path – whatever their reason – fits into my definition of feminism. if the decision were based only on pressure from family or some other reason apart from their own wishes, then i would say they are not acting in the spirit of feminism. so in my opinion, jamie, claire, and even brianna and roger, demonstrate, in their efforts to understand each other and accept what they learn about each other, the very best elements in the feminist philosophy. that’s one area in which frank failed miserably; while he came to recogize claire’s calling and even helped in some ways, he never really approved. he preferred that she be somebody who would be content with cooking dinners for the colleagues he invited to his home. somebody on one of the outlander sites – it may have been on this page – noted that while jamie toasted his wife as “claire fraser”, frank referred to who claire would be when they married as “mrs. frank randall”. a very telling distinction. i agree that one of the reasons we’re in love with these folks is that they accord with our own needs to be accepted for who we are, culture and other external pressures notwithstanding.

    • #3757
      barbc624
      Participant

      Rachel, I think you’re on to something. I know that sometimes I get so tired of trying to do it all that I do kind of wish that I didn’t have to. And I have an incredibly supportive husband. So yeah it is kind of nice to escape into those daydreams even though I know I could never be that happy little housewife. Great analysis. 🙂

    • #3763
      Terry Dresbach
      Keymaster

      [quote quote=3754]Once upon a time, like 100 gazillion years ago (okay, 18) I was getting my Ph.D. in the sociology of American Jews (more useless than a degree in English, Theatre or Journalism). I read a book that has stuck with me for this many years. It was a book about American Jewish women who chose (usually through marriage) to join the Orthodox Jewish community. The reason most of these women gave about why they were willing to ‘give up’ some of their marital rights (I would argue that Jewish women have always have more rights than most Christian/Catholic women, but we’ll ignore that for now) was that they were tired. It was the early 90s that these women would have been answering survey questions, but they were tired of fights about whose job it was to unpack the dishwasher, who should stay home with the children, who should do X, or Y or Z. They found it comforting to go ‘back’ to a world where there was no question–it just WAS. They would stay home, they would cook, they would unpack the dishwasher, they would do X, Y or Z whilst their husbands did A, B or C. They didn’t feel ‘lesser’ for these choices, they just felt relieved to end the fighting.

      So, sometimes when I read the Outlander books–especially the later ones–I think about that article and that survey, and wonder how much of what we like in these books come from that same place. The idea that men were men. Men defended, men hunted and men were, well, men. Yet at the same time we all live in the 20th-21st century and don’t WANT to feel those things. We want to feel liberated and free from typical gender roles. So we love Jamie because he is A Man. But we love Claire because she challenges that. It allows us to feel both things at once.
      [/quote]

      I think you have really hit on something important. I would expand your idea and include the entire back to the home movement of the 90’s, that is still the predominant focus for women today, the helicopter parenting, Baby Einstein, attachment parenting, child centered lives. It was as if women got out of the home and into the workplace in the 70’s and 80’s, and it was so hard, so brutal, that they just en masse, went “fuck this, why am I beating my self to death against a glass ceiling, in a workplace that is going to pay me less than that idiot next to me, I am going to be groped, pinched and discriminated against every day. If my kid gets sick I can’t stay home, if I get pregnant my family is in jeopardy, etc. etc.
      I may as well go home and contemplate my child’s navel every single damned day”

    • #3777
      filmfixation
      Participant

      Rachel-

      I got to thinking about your post. I agree that the “desire for a Man” with a capital M is real. It is certainly real for me. Which then got me thinking more. (a very dangerous thing indeed!) I started to think about drag and the exaggerated gendered performance so often attributed to male drag of femininity-aka Drag Queens (btw they are fabulous and I love them). Why is it that Jaime in the books, despite a lot of my own misgivings, continues to attract me? I don’t agree with a lot of his world-view and could imagine myself, very much like Claire, arguing into the wee hours of the morning with him about everything from spousal-corporal punishment, to abortion to native american rights. and YET. Methinks that after many hours of squabbling I would most likely succumb, again as Claire does (!), to his many “manly” delights because duh.

      So. what is a young, outspoken, radical feminist to do with these desires, both conflicting and complementary?

      1. As Terry has said, and I agree, desire isn’t wrong, it just isn’t. As long as your desires are being returned by a consensual adult, you’re good! Okay, phew! I can still be a loud and proud feminist and want to be “taken in the woods by a guy with a sword”. Awesome. My bodice is ready to be ripped and all that.

      2. Celebrating hyper-masculinity can actually be a subversive and yes, feminist act. Yes, thats right ladies. Dressing up in your apron at 6pm and surprising your man with nothing else on but oven mitts while uttering the phrase, “How was your day honey? I’ve been so lonely for you” is totally awesome and cool and utterly playful. By playing with these gendered- stereotypes we reveal how utterly ridiculous and pliable they are.

      3. DRAG! Lets get dirty. Drag is a celebration of gender as a performance-as something we put on each day just like eye-liner and lipstick. It allows us to see the incredible range of playfulness gender-performance can afford us if we just acknowledge that its an act! It isn’t natural…I didn’t come out of the womb with an uncontrollable urge to wear pink. Nope. But now? I love pink, its awesome. I’m lucky enough to feel really good about looking fem AND to have been born in this body.

      To me, Jaime in the books (and to a large extent in the show) is a subtle example of male-drag performance for the heterosexual female audience. Drag is all about finding how appearance and the stuff one chooses to wear (sword, vest, shirtless when injured, dirt, blood, ale, whisky, vest) along with mannerisms and “persona” combine to give an often extreme example of a hyper-gendered body. Now, I’m not saying Jamie Fraser is a drag queen. No. But I am saying that his Man-liness (both in appearance and in character traits) are so sharply defined, and unabashedly celebrated in the books, that it could certainly be viewed as a very artful exaggeration of the male gender. Which is how I choose to understand and frame my desire for both him AND for what you brought up Rachel.

      Don’t forget to have fun with gender…

  • #3767
    barbc624
    Participant

    I am one of those women who went to work in the 70’s,had a family, and has stuck it out through today. And what you said about the glass ceiling and the idiot next to you has not changed.

    I’m at a point of figuring out a way to get out of this rat race but am hampered by financial considerations. Namely where does the money come from to maintain a comfortable retirement lifestyle when the time comes since my husband’s and my 401Ks were decimated and our equity in our home destroyed in the financial meltdown.

    What it comes down to is feeling that women were sold a bill of goods. Rather than have it all it really meant do it all. So yeah there are days that it seems like my mothers generation had it not so bad, and if I happened to find some standing stones with a Jamie on the other side I just might take a walk through them.

    • #3772
      elizlk
      Participant

      The “having it all” idea is a challenge. One thing that I think Sheryl Sandberg got right in Lean In was the point that it takes the right partner to make having a career and raising kids work – for both partners.
      Now, if we can embrace feminism and make it equally OK for either partner to take the lead in child-rearing, that would be great. I just re-read the scene in Voyager where Frank decides to take Brianna to his office after school, so Claire can continue her Med studies. He does it not to support Claire so much as because it’s the right thing for Brianna, but still acknowledges that it’s clearly Claire’s purpose to be a doctor, and having that clarity of purpose is something he envies her.
      I’m not personally dealing with choices about kids, but there are some things I really want to do, but don’t have a partner to carry part of the load for me to do them. As someone else mentioned, the idea of having a strong partner like Jamie makes me really want to be Claire right about now (as long as he’s not off getting shot at by Redcoats.)

    • #3780
      nolakate
      Participant

      must be careful with that 6pm dinner with only apron on. I tried that one night and my hubby got to the door and said “ummm, my two other sergeants are on the way over for drinks”. umm indeed

  • #3768
    elizlk
    Participant

    [quote quote=3715]I never had trouble with the “discipling” scene because it is so contextual to the eighteenth century and I used discipline before seeing in this discussion because that is what is and I agree there is some equality in it. . In the “domination” scene when Claire says Jamie is hurting her and he continues [not when she says he’s crushing her and he responds] he really does want to possess her essence–she will call him master–but he cannot possess her without losing himself. It is the male instinct to “own” that is so troubling; I think his losing himself and her joining in the passion redeems the scene. Their union is complete and mutual. I was raped by a burglar on my 22nd birthday ( many years ago) and rape has nothing to do with sex–it is a crime of terrorism. I also defended sexual harassers for many years. I finally said to my husband, ” I cannot do another s**k my d*** case.” I would have to sit impassively as opposing counsel inevitably played a tape recording of my client saying something to that effect–usually exactly those words. Now I teach college students (both sexes) who believe women bring about their own rape. Barb, my niece was an actress in Hollywood ( her best friend still is and works frequently) and they have discussed this issue frequently. Seeing my niece bare her breasts in a film was quite an experience. I, also, do not know how to get this in the right place. It is amazing and comforting to hear all the brave, strong voices here. As for the question of “Are you a feminist?” very few of the student will raise their hands. I then ask, “Do you think women should have the right to vote?” Do you think that women should equal rights to men in society and in the workplace?” All the embrace these questions. the answer: “Guess what, you are a feminist.” Now I am rambling.
    [/quote]

    Gael,
    I also wrestle with the idea that people (men or women) don’t want to use the term “feminist” … and I hope that Emma Watson’s UN speech , which got quite a bit of traction, will help people understand that feminism isn’t about one gender over another, but about supporting the right for all people to realize their full potential. We have glorified “male” traits and gender in most societies for years, and need to swing the balance a bit … ensuring that girls are able to get education, not be forced into marriage, etc., as well as allowing boys to express caring and nurturing behavior. That’s oversimplifying, but it’s a start – raising awareness.

  • #3769
    Terry Dresbach
    Keymaster

    [quote quote=3767]I am one of those women who went to work in the 70’s,had a family, and has stuck it out through today. And what you said about the glass ceiling and the idiot next to you has not changed.

    I’m at a point of figuring out a way to get out of this rat race but am hampered by financial considerations. Namely where does the money come from to maintain a comfortable retirement lifestyle when the time comes since my husband’s and my 401Ks were decimated and our equity in our home destroyed in the financial meltdown.

    What it comes down to is feeling that women were sold a bill of goods. Rather than have it all it really meant do it all. So yeah there are days that it seems like my mothers generation had it not so bad, and if I happened to find some standing stones with a Jamie on the other side I just might take a walk through them.
    [/quote]

    I think we are all those women in one form or another. I quit work without thinking twice. I was fed up and tired of all of it. Tired of having to fight constantly for what male departments got automatically, and tired of being paid as much as the second camera assistant, to the assistant editor, the second grip.I got tired of being a ball buster every day, in order to get less than everyone else. But I was financially supporting my mother, and had to keep at it. When I got married,I thought I would come home and be an artist. Nope, I came home and was a housewife and barely got any of my work done. And that was with a very supportive husband.
    Now I am back at work, and back on the battlefield. I am a ball buster once again.

    Yes, those stones do seem to lead to a much simpler life. Not an easier one, but one with clearer delineation. Everyone works, otherwise you die.

    • #3776
      rachely
      Participant

      I stay at home because I have liberal arts degrees. I was an editor. I made 1/4 of what my husband made pre-tax. And with the marriage penalty I got taxed at his tax rate and I did the math one day and figured out that I was working for less than minimum wage and my salary was paying my husband’s taxes. All this for a job I didn’t love.

      Then I got knocked up (suprise!) and any salary I might have made would have gone to pay for day care if I didn’t stay home.

      Money sucks.

  • #3770
    nolakate
    Participant

    my mother was an army nurse in WWII. she and my dad had 4 kids in 5 years at which time, the story goes, she told him ‘ I don’t know what you’re going to do with all these kids but I’m going back to work’. my dad ( a plumber) came home after work and made dinner, checked homework, put us to bed. we lived on his wages and they saved hers – when they were ready to retire, age 50-ish, they had money to travel and live on the beach. you can only be a married feminist if you have a hubby who is equal with you. both my daughters have opted for no husband, not for feminism but cause it’s too much work for too little gain. they don’t make ’em like my daddy any more. and I see Jamie that way – equal.

  • #3775
    elizlk
    Participant

    [quote quote=3769]

    I think we are all those women in one form or another. I quit work without thinking twice. I was fed up and tired of all of it. Tired of having to fight constantly for what male departments got automatically, and tired of being paid as much as the second camera assistant, to the assistant editor, the second grip.I got tired of being a ball buster every day, in order to get less than everyone else. But I was financially supporting my mother, and had to keep at it. When I got married,I thought I would come home and be an artist. Nope, I came home and was a housewife and barely got any of my work done. And that was with a very supportive husband.
    Now I am back at work, and back on the battlefield. I am a ball buster once again.

    Yes, those stones do seem to lead to a much simpler life. Not an easier one, but one with clearer delineation. Everyone works, otherwise you die.
    [/quote]

    Terry,
    Sorry it’s still a struggle, but personally glad you’re back at it. Wondering whether you’ve watched the Makers? The episode this week was on women in Hollywood … interesting given this thread and other dialogue I’m following online. Episodes are available online – here’s Women in Hollywood.

    Also, your point about “simpler” in the lack of choice of whether to work, or not. That also occurs in many households around this country – people working because they have to, not because they have a choice. But when we can work at things we love doing, and be rewarded for it financially as well, it’s certainly easier.

  • #3781
    Terry Dresbach
    Keymaster

    [quote quote=3777]Rachel-

    I got to thinking about your post. I agree that the “desire for a Man” with a capital M is real. It is certainly real for me. Which then got me thinking more. (a very dangerous thing indeed!) I started to think about drag and the exaggerated gendered performance so often attributed to male drag of femininity-aka Drag Queens (btw they are fabulous and I love them). Why is it that Jaime in the books, despite a lot of my own misgivings, continues to attract me? I don’t agree with a lot of his world-view and could imagine myself, very much like Claire, arguing into the wee hours of the morning with him about everything from spousal-corporal punishment, to abortion to native american rights. and YET. Methinks that after many hours of squabbling I would most likely succumb, again as Claire does (!), to his many “manly” delights because duh.

    So. what is a young, outspoken, radical feminist to do with these desires, both conflicting and complementary?

    1. As Terry has said, and I agree, desire isn’t wrong, it just isn’t. As long as your desires are being returned by a consensual adult, you’re good! Okay, phew! I can still be a loud and proud feminist and want to be “taken in the woods by a guy with a sword”. Awesome. My bodice is ready to be ripped and all that.

    2. Celebrating hyper-masculinity can actually be a subversive and yes, feminist act. Yes, thats right ladies. Dressing up in your apron at 6pm and surprising your man with nothing else on but oven mitts while uttering the phrase, “How was your day honey? I’ve been so lonely for you” is totally awesome and cool and utterly playful. By playing with these gendered- stereotypes we reveal how utterly ridiculous and pliable they are.

    3. DRAG! Lets get dirty. Drag is a celebration of gender as a performance-as something we put on each day just like eye-liner and lipstick. It allows us to see the incredible range of playfulness gender-performance can afford us if we just acknowledge that its an act! It isn’t natural…I didn’t come out of the womb with an uncontrollable urge to wear pink. Nope. But now? I love pink, its awesome. I’m lucky enough to feel really good about looking fem AND to have been born in this body.

    To me, Jaime in the books (and to a large extent in the show) is a subtle example of male-drag performance for the heterosexual female audience. Drag is all about finding how appearance and the stuff one chooses to wear (sword, vest, shirtless when injured, dirt, blood, ale, whisky, vest) along with mannerisms and “persona” combine to give an often extreme example of a hyper-gendered body. Now, I’m not saying Jamie Fraser is a drag queen. No. But I am saying that his Man-liness (both in appearance and in character traits) are so sharply defined, and unabashedly celebrated in the books, that it could certainly be viewed as a very artful exaggeration of the male gender. Which is how I choose to understand and frame my desire for both him AND for what you brought up Rachel.

    Don’t forget to have fun with gender…

    [/quote]

    I think that one of the main things that the feminist movement got wrong was the focus on gender roles. I think it completely distracted the moment. I want to be equal to a man AS A WOMAN, not as a faux man. I don’t have to be like a man to be equal to him. I grew up in a time and place where marriages and homes were like battle fields over issues like changing an equal number of diapers. Such nonsense. Is that really a hill to die on?
    I am hardly a traditional woman, and I consider myself a proud feminist. But I am going to end up taking care of kids and home, more than my husband, because those things come more naturally to me, because I AM A WOMAN. He, on the either hand is going to take care of another list of tasks and responsibilities that come more naturally to him because HE IS A MAN. As long as the overall workload of our lives is equally balanced, then I could give a shit about who cooks more.
    I don’t want to be married to a faux woman, I want to be married to a man. If I wanted to be with a woman, I would do that. I like men. I like men who are somewhat traditional in their male attributes. That does not mean a caveman. That does not mean I am subservient. It means an equal partnership between a strong, independent, fully realized, intelligent man and woman, who see each other as equals. the rest of it is flotsam and jetsam. That is what resonates for me about Jamie and Claire. It is a partnership of equals.

    • #3782
      rachely
      Participant

      I think that one of the main things that the feminist movement got wrong was the focus on gender roles. I think it completely distracted the moment. I want to be equal to a man AS A WOMAN, not as a faux man. I don’t have to be like a man to be equal to him. I grew up in a time and place where marriages and homes were like battle fields over issues like changing an equal number of diapers. Such nonsense. Is that really a hill to die on?

      There is a–probably very outdated as a sociological study at this point–book called “The Mismeasure of Woman: why women are not the better sex, the inferior sexor the opposite sex” by Carol Tavris. You would enjoy it.

    • #3786
      filmfixation
      Participant

      I am hardly a traditional woman, and I consider myself a proud feminist. But I am going to end up taking care of kids and home, more than my husband, because those things come more naturally to me, because I AM A WOMAN. He, on the either hand is going to take care of another list of tasks and responsibilities that come more naturally to him because HE IS A MAN. As long as the overall workload of our lives is equally balanced, then I could give a shit about who cooks more.

      Feminism is strong, elastic and big enough to encompass this exact experience. It also can include experiences that dont fall within the binary of man and woman. I have lots of gender queer and trans friends who have taught me much on the subject . My feminism has to include a discussion of gender-it has to challenge the binary of man/woman because if it only focuses on giving women quality with men, we miss out on the many folks who don’t fall in that binary.

      My friend Sam is a gender queer fellow (born a “woman”) who doesn’t identify as man or woman, doesn’t even identify as a trans-man. He goes by “he” to make it easier to operate in a world obsessed with the lie of he/she. His right to equal pay, equal rights to marriage, access to medical care and the ability to walk through the world with JUST as much agency as any cis-gendered man, is to me, a huge part of the feminist movement.

  • #3784
    elizlk
    Participant

    [quote quote=3781]

    I think that one of the main things that the feminist movement got wrong was the focus on gender roles. I think it completely distracted the moment. I want to be equal to a man AS A WOMAN, not as a faux man. I don’t have to be like a man to be equal to him. I grew up in a time and place where marriages and homes were like battle fields over issues like changing an equal number of diapers. Such nonsense. Is that really a hill to die on?
    I am hardly a traditional woman, and I consider myself a proud feminist. But I am going to end up taking care of kids and home, more than my husband, because those things come more naturally to me, because I AM A WOMAN. He, on the either hand is going to take care of another list of tasks and responsibilities that come more naturally to him because HE IS A MAN. As long as the overall workload of our lives is equally balanced, then I could give a shit about who cooks more.
    I don’t want to be married to a faux woman, I want to be married to a man. If I wanted to be with a woman, I would do that. I like men. I like men who are somewhat traditional in their male attributes. That does not mean a caveman. That does not mean I am subservient. It means an equal partnership between a strong, independent, fully realized, intelligent man and woman, who see each other as equals. the rest of it is flotsam and jetsam. That is what resonates for me about Jamie and Claire. It is a partnership of equals.
    [/quote]

    Partnership of equals, exactly!

    [gold star, since there’s no like button]

  • #3785
    elizlk
    Participant

    [quote quote=3783]Maybe we should do a formal book discussion thread for those who would like to retread and continue this during the hiatus. Seems like we’re kind of doing it anyway. :)[/quote]

    I’m in!

    • #3787
      sonyakhanum
      Participant

      Me too, great idea! Though I wish I had more time to articulate my thoughts for this thread.

  • #3788
    Terry Dresbach
    Keymaster

    [quote quote=3784]

    I think that one of the main things that the feminist movement got wrong was the focus on gender roles. I think it completely distracted the moment. I want to be equal to a man AS A WOMAN, not as a faux man. I don’t have to be like a man to be equal to him. I grew up in a time and place where marriages and homes were like battle fields over issues like changing an equal number of diapers. Such nonsense. Is that really a hill to die on?
    I am hardly a traditional woman, and I consider myself a proud feminist. But I am going to end up taking care of kids and home, more than my husband, because those things come more naturally to me, because I AM A WOMAN. He, on the either hand is going to take care of another list of tasks and responsibilities that come more naturally to him because HE IS A MAN. As long as the overall workload of our lives is equally balanced, then I could give a shit about who cooks more.
    I don’t want to be married to a faux woman, I want to be married to a man. If I wanted to be with a woman, I would do that. I like men. I like men who are somewhat traditional in their male attributes. That does not mean a caveman. That does not mean I am subservient. It means an equal partnership between a strong, independent, fully realized, intelligent man and woman, who see each other as equals. the rest of it is flotsam and jetsam. That is what resonates for me about Jamie and Claire. It is a partnership of equals.

    Partnership of equals, exactly!

    [gold star, since there’s no like button]
    [/quote]

    However, I want equal status in society. Period. I want equal pay, equal rights, I don’t want my daughter to feel she has to give up being smart at 15, because her only viable option is marriage, I want paid pregnancy leave, I don’t want to fear walking down the street or being alone in an elevator with a strange man, I am tired of women’s naked bodies being used to sell everything from cars to liquor, I am tired of every woman being sexualized…it is a long list. I am tired of men viewing women as property and treating them as such. But what goes on in my home and in my bedroom is my business, what goes on in the world is all of ours.

  • #3789
    filmfixation
    Participant

    But what goes on in my home and in my bedroom is my business, what goes on in the world is all of ours.

    YESSSSS. Fuck yeah. One of my favorite lines in this forum.

    • #3790
      rachely
      Participant

      Can we add

      But what goes on in my home, in my body and in my bedroom is my business, what goes on in the world is all of ours.

    • #3793
      filmfixation
      Participant

      Certainly. Its when fuckers want to politicize the female body and control the choices we have every right to make regarding our own bodies that the personal becomes political.

    • #3839
      GraceBWell
      Participant

      AMEN! my body feels like an important addition to an amazing quote! Thank you!

  • #3791
    Terry Dresbach
    Keymaster

    [quote quote=3786]I am hardly a traditional woman, and I consider myself a proud feminist. But I am going to end up taking care of kids and home, more than my husband, because those things come more naturally to me, because I AM A WOMAN. He, on the either hand is going to take care of another list of tasks and responsibilities that come more naturally to him because HE IS A MAN. As long as the overall workload of our lives is equally balanced, then I could give a shit about who cooks more.

    Feminism is strong, elastic and big enough to encompass this exact experience. It also can include experiences that dont fall within the binary of man and woman. I have lots of gender queer and trans friends who have taught me much on the subject . My feminism has to include a discussion of gender-it has to challenge the binary of man/woman because if it only focuses on giving women quality with men, we miss out on the many folks who don’t fall in that binary.

    My friend Sam is a gender queer fellow (born a “woman”) who doesn’t identify as man or woman, doesn’t even identify as a trans-man. He goes by “he” to make it easier to operate in a world obsessed with the lie of he/she. His right to equal pay, equal rights to marriage, access to medical care and the ability to walk through the world with JUST as much agency as any cis-gendered man, is to me, a huge part of the feminist movement.
    [/quote]

    Couldn’t agree more. One could easily expand the discussion to cover all people. There is a bottom line that we as a society should agree that all people have a right to. Period. To me it is very, very simple.

  • #3792
    Terry Dresbach
    Keymaster

    [quote quote=3790]Can we add

    But what goes on in my home, in my body and in my bedroom is my business, what goes on in the world is all of ours.

    [/quote] of course.

  • #3795
    elizlk
    Participant

    [quote quote=3788]

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>elizlk wrote:</div>

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Terry Dresbach wrote:</div>
    I think that one of the main things that the feminist movement got wrong was the focus on gender roles. I think it completely distracted the moment. I want to be equal to a man AS A WOMAN, not as a faux man. I don’t have to be like a man to be equal to him. I grew up in a time and place where marriages and homes were like battle fields over issues like changing an equal number of diapers. Such nonsense. Is that really a hill to die on?
    I am hardly a traditional woman, and I consider myself a proud feminist. But I am going to end up taking care of kids and home, more than my husband, because those things come more naturally to me, because I AM A WOMAN. He, on the either hand is going to take care of another list of tasks and responsibilities that come more naturally to him because HE IS A MAN. As long as the overall workload of our lives is equally balanced, then I could give a shit about who cooks more.
    I don’t want to be married to a faux woman, I want to be married to a man. If I wanted to be with a woman, I would do that. I like men. I like men who are somewhat traditional in their male attributes. That does not mean a caveman. That does not mean I am subservient. It means an equal partnership between a strong, independent, fully realized, intelligent man and woman, who see each other as equals. the rest of it is flotsam and jetsam. That is what resonates for me about Jamie and Claire. It is a partnership of equals.

    Partnership of equals, exactly!

    [gold star, since there’s no like button]

    However, I want equal status in society. Period. I want equal pay, equal rights, I don’t want my daughter to feel she has to give up being smart at 15, because her only viable option is marriage, I want paid pregnancy leave, I don’t want to fear walking down the street or being alone in an elevator with a strange man, I am tired of women’s naked bodies being used to sell everything from cars to liquor, I am tired of every woman being sexualized…it is a long list. I am tired of men viewing women as property and treating them as such. But what goes on in my home and in my bedroom is my business, what goes on in the world is all of ours.
    [/quote]

    What goes on in the world is all of ours … so I look forward to working with all of you, each in our own ways, as we make space for Terry’s daughter and all children to not have to be continuing the fight in another 20 years. Even if it makes the special nature of Outlander on TV obsolete, it’s worth working for. [Mentally pick up pitchfork to go back into the fight …. have to land my next job, after all.]

    • #3800
      sonyakhanum
      Participant

      Tulach Ard! 🙂

    • #3803
      barbc624
      Participant

      Yes to all of the above.

      Seriously I think I have been waiting my entire life for women en masse to say “fuck it” and to rise up and take over. We can hardly screw things up worse than men.

    • #3811
      rachely
      Participant

      This reminded me of the world’s greatest protest sign.

  • #3796
    sonyakhanum
    Participant

    [quote quote=3786]I am hardly a traditional woman, and I consider myself a proud feminist. But I am going to end up taking care of kids and home, more than my husband, because those things come more naturally to me, because I AM A WOMAN. He, on the either hand is going to take care of another list of tasks and responsibilities that come more naturally to him because HE IS A MAN. As long as the overall workload of our lives is equally balanced, then I could give a shit about who cooks more.

    Feminism is strong, elastic and big enough to encompass this exact experience. It also can include experiences that dont fall within the binary of man and woman. I have lots of gender queer and trans friends who have taught me much on the subject . My feminism has to include a discussion of gender-it has to challenge the binary of man/woman because if it only focuses on giving women quality with men, we miss out on the many folks who don’t fall in that binary.

    My friend Sam is a gender queer fellow (born a “woman”) who doesn’t identify as man or woman, doesn’t even identify as a trans-man. He goes by “he” to make it easier to operate in a world obsessed with the lie of he/she. His right to equal pay, equal rights to marriage, access to medical care and the ability to walk through the world with JUST as much agency as any cis-gendered man, is to me, a huge part of the feminist movement.
    [/quote]

    I totally agree with this and I think feminism has evolved to reflect this and encompass the diversity of gender identity. On the issue of gender roles and norms and going back to the traditional, I’m going through an inner battle at the moment.

    I’m a lawyer in a field that has been tailored predominately by white heterosexual men. As a woman and a visible minority, it’s been quite the struggle in fighting notions that I’m not “tough” enough because I don’t take an aggressive, “manly” approach towards certain positions/issues. I approach them in ways that are considered “feminine”. When I’m able to bring about the same result or a better result than from what is considered to be an aggressive, antagonistic one, it’s still considered to be a major flaw, even though I’ve been told I’m a very good and effective lawyer. So, do I have to “act like a man” and shed my “feminine qualities” in order to get any respect? And yet, when I take an assertive approach to certain positions/issues, then I’m dealing with the perception of being too aggressive, a “bitch”, vs. being firm and assertive. I can never win. I’ve been told by a senior woman lawyer that it’s going to take at least 10 years of hard work to finally get the respect you deserve in this field and yet my male colleagues don’t have to deal with this battle. It’s lose lose, either you’re too soft or too aggressive. Sorry, that’s my rant for the day.

    • This reply was modified 7 years, 7 months ago by sonyakhanum.
    • #3799
      filmfixation
      Participant

      This is the worst. It has been a blot on culture since women entered the work force, especially when women started to take on highly-male controlled industries, the law being one of the biggest and most pervasive.

      My only comment, which can hardly be described as advise because I wont pretend to know what it would be like to be a woman of color in that culture, is this: don’t compromise, live your truth, and find community. Community-whether it be with like minded women or allied men, is HUGE.

      my love and support!

      also: FUCK them.

    • #3805
      barbc624
      Participant

      I work in insurance which is a totally white male dominated industry. Same experience and attitudes.

  • #3801
    barbc624
    Participant

    [quote quote=3788]

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>elizlk wrote:</div>

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Terry Dresbach wrote:</div>

    However, I want equal status in society. Period. I want equal pay, equal rights, I don’t want my daughter to feel she has to give up being smart at 15, because her only viable option is marriage, I want paid pregnancy leave, I don’t want to fear walking down the street or being alone in an elevator with a strange man, I am tired of women’s naked bodies being used to sell everything from cars to liquor, I am tired of every woman being sexualized…it is a long list. I am tired of men viewing women as property and treating them as such. But what goes on in my home and in my bedroom is my business, what goes on in the world is all of ours.
    [/quote]

    What you said.

    Has anyone ever read The Gateway to Women’s Country by Shari S.Tepper? The book is based in a world run by women after the men screwed it up and pretty much destroyed civilization. Lots of interesting stuff about gender and roles in it.

  • #3802
    sonyakhanum
    Participant

    Thanks for the support! Unfortunately, it’s such a common problem in many industries and especially in leadership roles.

    • #3807
      nolakate
      Participant

      have not read the book but, I did work for 7 years at the national council for catholic women. all women. no men. high powered women running an organization of 3000 parishes. BUT when a man came in, especially a priest or bishop, you could feel the attitude change, they were more simpering, bitchy (!), and less empowered. once he left, back to women in charge. as a psych major, it was lots of fun to watch! I’ve seen this in other jobs – as a 911 operator we were equal male and female, union job so equal pay and benefits. the dispatchers were all female and could handle emergencies on any scale – but in came a cop and jockeying for attention started. these jobs were 30 and 20 years ago but I’m not sure it would be changed now, even with more years of ‘feminism’ in the meantime

    • #3808
      elizlk
      Participant

      Sonya,
      I agree with the earlier advice to find a community – a network of people who can empathize and help. It’s always easier to take on tough things with a support network. And, they might end up helping you find a way to a different firm/role, if it turns out where you are is untenable.

      Press recently around the whole issue of women being evaluated differently in the workplace, and the terms that show up in performance evaluations for women but not men. I’ve been there, too. #bossy #aggressive etc … and some workplaces are different than others. I worked in management consulting/public accounting in a group with 1 female partner in the Boston office, and national/global org that had been successfully sued for not making a woman partner because she was a woman. (Partners took it seriously, because it hit their wallets directly.)
      Anyway, I ultimately left – not because of gender issues, but because making partner wasn’t worth the sacrifices I’d have had to make. Landed in the tech organization of a financial services company, with a female CIO and pretty gender-balanced technology leadership team. It was a great place to work. So, sometimes the grass is actually greener, and a good network may help you determine that, if nothing else.

  • #3804
    barbc624
    Participant

    [quote quote=3790]Can we add

    But what goes on in my home, in my body and in my bedroom is my business, what goes on in the world is all of ours.

    [/quote]

    YES.

  • #3806
    elizlk
    Participant

    [quote quote=3800]Tulach Ard! :) [/quote]

    Je suis pret!

  • #3809
    Terry Dresbach
    Keymaster

    In the “domination” scene when Claire says Jamie is hurting her and he continues [not when she says he’s crushing her and he responds] he really does want to possess her essence–she will call him master–but he cannot possess her without losing himself. It is the male instinct to “own” that is so troubling;

    I have been thinking about this a lot. If we did not live in a culture where men wanting to “own” or “possess” a woman meant that some took that to include rape. If rape was not the elephant in the room, is it an issue? And is it purely a male inclination? I don’t think it is at all. My husband is MINE, he knows that, and everyone does. I am very possessive, in I think, a very positive and healthy way.
    I am not sure that is a male territory.

    • #3810
      rachely
      Participant

      You’ve made us all think about this!

      I’ve been thinking that it’s not really the part where she says to stop and he doesn’t–she has, at that point, consented. There’s this scene before that where they’re talking about what claims Claire has on Jamie and (…had to go find my Nook to quote this right…) Jamie says “you’re my wife, and if I want ye, woman, then I’ll have you, and be damned to you”. Then she gets him with the line about acting like BJR. That part upsets me, it makes me shaky.

      But C is clearly just as possessive as J is, she just isn’t at this point in the series–since she’s still planning on leaving.

    • #3814
      barbc624
      Participant

      I don’t remember – is this the last time that Jamie tries to pull the ownership card on Claire? I can’t think of a time he does it after this scene but I could be spacing it.

      If he doesn’t then this is pretty much his key decision point in creating a relationship of equals.

      Claire’s comes at the stones when she chooses Jamie over Frank. Although I think she is still pretty possessive at this point – she just won’t admit it to herself. (Unreliable narrator).

    • #3815
      rachely
      Participant

      Unreliable? You mean Claire I’m-not-jealous-ofLeoghaire-nuh-uh-NotNotNot Fraser? 8 books later and she still won’t admit that one 🙂

    • #3827
      sonyakhanum
      Participant

      I don’t think it’s male territory either. With Jamie and Claire, I see it as their relationship being a mutual possession (that’s healthy), mutual respect and equal partnership. When you take the mutuality aspect of it out, then I think it becomes problematic. I think a sense of possession manifests itself in different ways for different people – not sure really how to articulate that myself. I don’t know why, not sure how it fits, but for some reason this topic reminded me of Khalil Gibran’s poem from The Prophet on marriage:

      “Then Almitra spoke again and said, “And what of Marriage, master?”
      And he answered saying:
      You were born together, and together you shall be forevermore.
      You shall be together when white wings of death scatter your days.
      Aye, you shall be together even in the silent memory of God.
      But let there be spaces in your togetherness,
      And let the winds of the heavens dance between you.
      Love one another but make not a bond of love:
      Let it rather be a moving sea between the shores of your souls.
      Fill each other’s cup but drink not from one cup.
      Give one another of your bread but eat not from the same loaf.
      Sing and dance together and be joyous, but let each one of you be alone,
      Even as the strings of a lute are alone though they quiver with the same music.
      Give your hearts, but not into each other’s keeping.
      For only the hand of Life can contain your hearts.
      And stand together, yet not too near together:
      For the pillars of the temple stand apart,
      And the oak tree and the cypress grow not in each other’s shadow.”

    • #3828
      filmfixation
      Participant

      but isnt male domination/possessiveness a historical/present fact for millions of women? Maybe in our own relationships we dont experience it, (maybe some of us do) but its a fact for many. Also-men as a whole suffer from patriarchy as well-it sucks to grow up in a world where women might be scared of you just because you happen to walk next to them down a dark street. Ugh. that being said, the suffering women undergo in a sexist society is far greater.

    • #3829
      filmfixation
      Participant

      all that being said, i really love this poem.

    • #3822
      rachely
      Participant

      I have been thinking about this a lot. If we did not live in a culture where men wanting to “own” or “possess” a woman meant that some took that to include rape. If rape was not the elephant in the room, is it an issue? And is it purely a male inclination?

      So, remember (no, of course you don’t, I talk too much) when I said Jewish women had it better than Christian/Catholic women (I know Catholics are Christians, it’s just that for most of Jewish history the only Christians were Catholics)?

      The ketubah, the Jewish marriage contract, says that husbands are obligated to give their wives three things food, clothing, and sexual relations (usually defined by rabbis as orgasms). Interestingly, this obligation ONLY falls on the man.

      Women always had the right to own property.

      Marital rape and spousal abuse was not okay (not saying it didn’t happen, obviously it did, but it wasn’t kosher). Jewish law is actually “yes means yes” and it has been for thousands of years.

      There is/was/will be a LOT of unfairness and patriarchy in Judaism. But I do love how forward they were.

      There’s a scene in one of the books where Jamie wonders whether it is “the lack of the foreskin” that makes Jewish (and Muslim) men think that marital sex is a good thing. I always wanted to sit down with Jamie and have a conversation about it 🙂

    • #3831
      barbc624
      Participant

      That’s one of the things I loved about my Jewish marriage ceremony. No “obey” part and my husband vow was the same as mine – said as we put the rings on each others fingers.
      “With this ring you are consecrated to me according to the laws of Moses and Israel.”

    • #3842
      rachely
      Participant

      Does anyone say obey anymore? I know C of E doesn’t, but that’s because I read too many british novels… but does anyone else?

    • #3832
      laplane
      Participant

      <<<So, remember (no, of course you don’t, I talk too much) when I said Jewish women had it better than Christian/Catholic women (I know Catholics are Christians, it’s just that for most of Jewish history the only Christians were Catholics)?

      The ketubah, the Jewish marriage contract, says that husbands are obligated to give their wives three things food, clothing, and sexual relations (usually defined by rabbis as orgasms). Interestingly, this obligation ONLY falls on the man.

      Women always had the right to own property.

      Marital rape and spousal abuse was not okay (not saying it didn’t happen, obviously it did, but it wasn’t kosher). Jewish law is actually “yes means yes” and it has been for thousands of years.

      There is/was/will be a LOT of unfairness and patriarchy in Judaism. But I do love how forward they were.

      There’s a scene in one of the books where Jamie wonders whether it is “the lack of the foreskin” that makes Jewish (and Muslim) men think that marital sex is a good thing. I always wanted to sit down with Jamie and have a conversation about it 🙂
      Rachel>>>

      rachel, thanks for the reminder. the shulchan aruch [jewish book of law] has a large section on what is owed to a woman in marriage. but unfortunately that is balanced in a negative way by strict laws, also in the shulchan aruch, governing what is and is not allowed in the jewish marriage bed. for example – if i recall correctly – the bodies must be covered except for the genital areas, so that visual stimulation is out.

      on the other hand, i view all such writings as reflecting the times in which they were written; in that sense the laws demanding sexual satisfaction for the wife are pretty much avante garde for their time.

    • #3823
      laplane
      Participant

      <<<Terry Dresbach
      Keymaster
      In the “domination” scene when Claire says Jamie is hurting her and he continues [not when she says he’s crushing her and he responds] he really does want to possess her essence–she will call him master–but he cannot possess her without losing himself. It is the male instinct to “own” that is so troubling;

      I have been thinking about this a lot. If we did not live in a culture where men wanting to “own” or “possess” a woman meant that some took that to include rape. If rape was not the elephant in the room, is it an issue? And is it purely a male inclination? I don’t think it is at all. My husband is MINE, he knows that, and everyone does. I am very possessive, in I think, a very positive and healthy way.
      I am not sure that is a male territory.>>>

      terry, i am in full agreement with you about the two-sidedness of that dominance thing – if indeed dominance is the correct term, or even possession. to me it’s more a matter of we’ve found each other; we love what we found, even with the wrinkles here and there; and we want to keep each other. it’s the mutuality in a relationship. your comment about your husband being yours gave me a chuckle: in one of the early online outlander discussions the issue of the tv series being faithful to the books came up, and ron said something to the effect that he wouldn’t dare mess up his wife’s favorite book! that man wants to make sure you keep wanting him to be yours!

      • This reply was modified 7 years, 7 months ago by laplane.
  • #3813
    tiggeros
    Participant

    However, I want equal status in society. Period. I want equal pay, equal rights, I don’t want my daughter to feel she has to give up being smart at 15, because her only viable option is marriage, I want paid pregnancy leave, I don’t want to fear walking down the street or being alone in an elevator with a strange man, I am tired of women’s naked bodies being used to sell everything from cars to liquor, I am tired of every woman being sexualized…it is a long list. I am tired of men viewing women as property and treating them as such. But what goes on in my home and in my bedroom is my business, what goes on in the world is all of ours.

    I totally agree with you in wanting total equality in society, but you need to be careful what you wish for – some of these things, do NOT bring equality, but rather reinforce the gender stereotypes. I’ll try to explain. I live in France… some people may know that France has one of the best maternity packages in Europe, if n the world. (not as good as Sweden – now they have got it going on!) I got 20 weeks fully paid maternity leave fr my kids, plus another 4 weeks full pay because I breastfed. My husband got 8 days paid paternity leave, which he could take WHENEVER he wanted. (employers are legally obliged to say yes, with 24 hours notice I believe) Sounds peachy, right? I get most of my childcare paid for, and the rest is a tax break. School starts age 3, so there’s only 3 years they need full time care, and even then, you get a base amount of about 600 euros a month if you do decide to stay at home. Some people even manage to wangle a home help paid for by the State (never did manage that one!)
    Personally, I have found that these perks have reinforced the stereotypes – because it is so cheap and easy to stay at home; it’s expected of you. I cannot count the number of people who treated me like a crazy person for going back to work after 3 or 4 months at home! Despite the parental leave being available to both parents ( you choose whether Mum or dad take it) only 2 or maybe 4 % of those are men. Why? By celebrating “family” and motherhood ( 4 r 5 kids? Hey, here, have a medal from the President – seriously, I’m not joking) And so people do follow the beaten path. Paternity leave (8 days) is often used for a cheap holiday, or to get the DIY done, rather than helping Mum with the baby (+ siblings)

    Indeed, this crazy person went back to work very early – to be fair, brilliant laws about that! You must go back to your exact previous position, with all perks, and they have to let you “off” for one hour a day to breastfeed (can be seperated into 3 x 20 mins for example) AND they have to provide you with somewhere to pump! – but, now reading this post, I realize I’ve gone back to a seriously gender -stereotyped job: teaching. Ever noticed how many teachers are female? Especially primary/junior (grade school US I believe)? And why is that? A heated discussion with a friend over after school club, gave me an indication. If you’re a teacher, then yeah, you go to work, but you can look after the kids and have dinner on the table, just like if you DIDN’T work… It got heated, because I work in junior high, an the school times/ out of hours care doesn’t work for me. Her response was to tell me to change jobs to look after my children. Seriously. It may be specific to the area in which I live (v. traditional, right-wing kind of place), but I fear it is an attitude inherent to our society. Women must be in caring roles, they must be available for their family. How many of you actually bother to ask the question “who’s staying home?” when one the kids is ill?
    Whilst I love my hubby, I hate that the model my kids will see, is not as idealistic as I would have wished – or rather it’s a pretty traditional set up ( at the moment very much so because of work) – but I think the only way we are really going to change these perceptions/restrictions etc. is by starting off at home. If there is equality in your home, then your children will expect equality everywhere; and hopefully , they’ll get it.

    And so the ramble stops xx

    • #3820
      filmfixation
      Participant

      This is so interesting!!! Thank you for sharing! I completely agree with your point, nothing is ever as easy as we want it to be. Has this been written about? (parisian/european women and the downside to governmental support for childcare?)

  • #3816
    julieis
    Participant

    In response to a man’s idea of possessing a woman or owning a woman: I think men and women think about this differently and we are not very far away from our biological ancestors. When my ex and I would walk in to a room where other men were, he would in a very affected way, come over and kiss me. I would whisper in his ear “why don’t you just urinate on me to show all the boys, I’m yours! We both have a good sense of humor and had a good chuckle over it, but he never failed to do this. I never felt the need to show that kind of ownership in front of other women. We were committed to each other and it was clear to me that everyone could see that.
    But young men I don’t think have the deep conversations about women that we women have about men. I worked with a young man from South Africa, and became his mentor. We had a very open conversation about male and female roles and relationships. I talked to him about all the things his mother probably couldn’t, and his father didn’t. He told me when he got married some day, he was going to have the right to have sex with his wife when ever he felt like it. I was driving and had to pull the car over! I had to reign my emotions in to get my point across, that his mate is not his property. I spent the next hour+ talking this one topic out with him about relationships, and where could he have gotten that notion about all this. It gets me going just writing about it. He was a great listener as I don’t believe anyone had taken the time to be this frank with him about a man and a woman.
    Jamie is a man with little sexual, and female relationship experience up to the wedding night. Being master to Claire and wanting to own/possess her is perhaps what men actually got to do in those times, but I think most men realize it’s not a simple thing to be all that to a woman. If I want ye, I will take ye; well good luck with all that.
    Men also have that need of approval of their woman (originating from their mom) so the man needs to learn the dance if he wants a happy wife. Happy wife, happy life.
    DG understands sexual tension and relationship deeply, and she knows how to write about it to make us all crazy with those related emotions.

    • #3819
      filmfixation
      Participant

      Hmmm, I agree with some of this, but in terms of Jaime’s experience with women…remember his mother was a force to be reckoned with (talk abuot a lady before her time…) and he also grew up with Jenny practically raising him and running the household after his mother’s death.

      Perhaps its not so much that he didnt have much experience with women in general, but more so that he had very little experience with a woman in a romantic/marriage relationship-especially a woman like Claire.

      Also-I cant help but bristle at the statement that men and women think about something differently-(in this context) there a billion and one exemptions from the male behavior that you describe. My boyfriend is one of them. I am by far the more possessive when it comes to claiming my territory. Plus-there are so many socialization rituals we go through to understand “male” and “female” behavior in a monogamous relationship. The relationship between male biology and male socialization in a patriachy is soooooo hard to parse out. What is a “natural” “animal” urge and what is learned and reinforced through culture?

      To your point Terry, maybe IF we didn’t live in a patriarchy where rape and abuse are used for domination then perhaps that scene would be different. But we dont, never have, and the world of Outlander certainly makes that very clear. Nevertheless I take your point. I am also very possessive in a healthy way-and if kept in the right balance, that part of a relationship can be healthy and sexy and totally empowering.

      Its a hard scene for me. Ive appreciated all the posts that have gone into detail to explain Jamie’s motivations and how the episode results in a equal partnership. I however still have issues with it. (Which by the way, have in no way lessened my enjoyment or appreciation for the novels obviously) Especially because right before this he admits that he enjoyed whipping her (I wish it could have been made more explicit that he and Claire were into S&M!) and that she should be grateful he didnt have sex with her directly after because he had wanted to.

      However I do seem to be in the minority on this one!

      • This reply was modified 7 years, 7 months ago by filmfixation.
    • #3825
      rachely
      Participant

      Hmmm, I agree with some of this, but in terms of Jaime’s experience with women…remember his mother was a force to be reckoned with (talk about a lady before her time…) and he also grew up with Jenny practically raising him and running the household after his mother’s death.

      THIS. Jamie talks a lot about how his parents had an awesome relationship built out of mutual respect. Then he gets all neanderthal about it once he’s married? Who did he learn that from? Too much time at Leoch? France? (Though there is this whole thing later when we learn that Jenny lets [yeah, I’m sticking with ‘lets’] Ian beat her.

      And there’s that “well, he’s only 23” thing. Except that boys were men at, what, 14? Ian bedded Little Mary when he was 14 FFS. And Marisli (no idea how to spell that) was 15 when she married Fergus (who was 30, right?).

      I have other things to say, but my menfolk expect dinner soon. 🙂

      ETA: I hate emoji smiles. I miss just typographical smiles. : )

      • This reply was modified 7 years, 7 months ago by rachely.
  • #3833
    barbc624
    Participant

    [quote quote=3825]

    Hmmm, I agree with some of this, but in terms of Jaime’s experience with women…remember his mother was a force to be reckoned with (talk about a lady before her time…) and he also grew up with Jenny practically raising him and running the household after his mother’s death.

    THIS. Jamie talks a lot about how his parents had an awesome relationship built out of mutual respect. Then he gets all neanderthal about it once he’s married? Who did he learn that from? Too much time at Leoch? France? (Though there is this whole thing later when we learn that Jenny lets [yeah, I’m sticking with ‘lets’] Ian beat her.

    And there’s that “well, he’s only 23″ thing. Except that boys were men at, what, 14? Ian bedded Little Mary when he was 14 FFS. And Marisli (no idea how to spell that) was 15 when she married Fergus (who was 30, right?).

    I have other things to say, but my menfolk expect dinner soon. :)

    ETA: I hate emoji smiles. I miss just typographical smiles. : )
    [/quote]

    I don’t buy the age thing for the same reasons you don’t.

    I think it was partly that his mother died when he was still very young and he lost her daily influence and the model of his parents marriage, which was unusual for the time according to Jamie. Ellen was a strong woman who didn’t let the men in her world run her life. Witness her marriage to Brian and the fact that she took a knife to Dougal when he tried to cut her husband’s throat. Brian was no slouch either – Jamie’s credits his virginity to Brian’s teachings about respecting women and taking responsibility for his interactions with them.

    When he went out in the world away from the semi-isolation of Lallybroch he was constantly exposed to the prevailing ideas of what a male/female relationship was supposed to be which was not what he had grown up seeing. He was given different models at a time when young men are just figuring out who they are going to be. I’m sure his time with MacKenzies, especially with Dougal, at this critical time reinforced the prevailing ideas of male superiority and ownership of women despite his earlier upbringing. I doubt France was any more progressive than Scotland in that respect.

    But, his early life experiences made him more open to the idea of an equal relationship with a woman and that was critical when he met Claire. The foundation was there and he needed some re-educating which she was perfectly capable of giving him.

  • #3844
    GraceBWell
    Participant

    Terry (I think I reposted this by accident….still learning how to post.)

    Many of your comments really touched me. I am truly warmed by the bravery and honesty of everyone’s truth expressed and as I keep reading I am more amazed. I find myself tearful reading one of your sentences about your children “I never want them to feel like the only person they can really count on is themselves”. It really rung a bell for me. I started to wonder why and I think it has to do with my own aspirations as a mother to my (future) children that they WILL know that they can trust themselves above all else and know they are not alone. Your words inspire me and shine through wisdom and courage that is born from a mother that has reached for a new place in her lineage to grow.

    As a hopeful mother, some day to a living child (stillbirth & infertility a taboo subject also honestly dealt with in the books), I’ve experienced the trauma from a brutalizing father with a mother who could not see or defend her children because of her own fears, trauma and not knowing that she CAN protect herself and her children. My sister and I both growing up in this shroud of confusion, left us more vulnerable to more experiences of objectification and abuse from men that so many have echoed here in this forum. SO many women in my own sphere have felt this trauma – it reverberates through the ages into the present times across all social boundaries.

    I feel blessed , from where ever grace is granted, to also have had a bullish spirit from seemingly babyhood (if my aunties are right) and somehow not just survived but thrived. I have learned there are many enternal junctions in life that I made the choice (which can not be given but made) to move forward even at such a young age. Even in the darkest parts of my mind and soul that were so violated, some how I find ways to keep reaching for the lightness in my being and in the world. I can’t explain it but it’s deserving of deep gratitude. Especially since while lonely – I always knew that I was not alone as a child and a growing person, despite it all.

    At 39, I can see at every turn there has been a web – of mostly women, some kin, some not, some strangers, some men & especially my amazing husband – that included and welcomed me. They served and protected me as I do so fiercely for them. An unspeakable gift was being passed on so that I may one day learn to protect myself and cherish what is dear inside of me. 
Still a life (time) lesson but the courage to look directly & honor the dark corners inside is not just driven from my own desire – even though I do feel on a daily basis that I my time on earth is precious & deserves protection. But also created by the aspiration that I could one day serve my own children and others to not just know the warrior in themselves but also the lover.

    Your words for your children echoes my wish that we all may have the discernment to know how to join the world from a place of honor, respect, love and passion that is so intimately rooted uniquely inside of ourselves. And to learn this discernment we NEED each other – we need protection that you so fiercely guard for your children. No matter what that truth will always ring true and I admire you for it. 




  • #3848
    Terry Dresbach
    Keymaster

    [quote quote=3827]I don’t think it’s male territory either. With Jamie and Claire, I see it as their relationship being a mutual possession (that’s healthy), mutual respect and equal partnership. When you take the mutuality aspect of it out, then I think it becomes problematic. I think a sense of possession manifests itself in different ways for different people – not sure really how to articulate that myself. I don’t know why, not sure how it fits, but for some reason this topic reminded me of Khalil Gibran’s poem from The Prophet on marriage:

    “Then Almitra spoke again and said, “And what of Marriage, master?”
    And he answered saying:
    You were born together, and together you shall be forevermore.
    You shall be together when white wings of death scatter your days.
    Aye, you shall be together even in the silent memory of God.
    But let there be spaces in your togetherness,
    And let the winds of the heavens dance between you.
    Love one another but make not a bond of love:
    Let it rather be a moving sea between the shores of your souls.
    Fill each other’s cup but drink not from one cup.
    Give one another of your bread but eat not from the same loaf.
    Sing and dance together and be joyous, but let each one of you be alone,
    Even as the strings of a lute are alone though they quiver with the same music.
    Give your hearts, but not into each other’s keeping.
    For only the hand of Life can contain your hearts.
    And stand together, yet not too near together:
    For the pillars of the temple stand apart,
    And the oak tree and the cypress grow not in each other’s shadow.”

    [/quote]
    and we think WE are an advanced culture…

  • #3849
    Terry Dresbach
    Keymaster

    [quote quote=3819]Hmmm, I agree with some of this, but in terms of Jaime’s experience with women…remember his mother was a force to be reckoned with (talk abuot a lady before her time…) and he also grew up with Jenny practically raising him and running the household after his mother’s death.

    Perhaps its not so much that he didnt have much experience with women in general, but more so that he had very little experience with a woman in a romantic/marriage relationship-especially a woman like Claire.

    Also-I cant help but bristle at the statement that men and women think about something differently-(in this context) there a billion and one exemptions from the male behavior that you describe. My boyfriend is one of them. I am by far the more possessive when it comes to claiming my territory. Plus-there are so many socialization rituals we go through to understand “male” and “female” behavior in a monogamous relationship. The relationship between male biology and male socialization in a patriachy is soooooo hard to parse out. What is a “natural” “animal” urge and what is learned and reinforced through culture?

    To your point Terry, maybe IF we didn’t live in a patriarchy where rape and abuse are used for domination then perhaps that scene would be different. But we dont, never have, and the world of Outlander certainly makes that very clear. Nevertheless I take your point. I am also very possessive in a healthy way-and if kept in the right balance, that part of a relationship can be healthy and sexy and totally empowering.

    Its a hard scene for me. Ive appreciated all the posts that have gone into detail to explain Jamie’s motivations and how the episode results in a equal partnership. I however still have issues with it. (Which by the way, have in no way lessened my enjoyment or appreciation for the novels obviously) Especially because right before this he admits that he enjoyed whipping her (I wish it could have been made more explicit that he and Claire were into S&M!) and that she should be grateful he didnt have sex with her directly after because he had wanted to.

    However I do seem to be in the minority on this one!

    [/quote]

    I understand your difficulty with it, but I am going to say again, that I have a real problem with digitally removing the cigarettes from movies made in the 40s. If this book were written according to modern idealism, it just would not ring true, it would not be believable. I think that Jamie is already so idealized and so modern, that it stretches the plausibility right to the edge. I also don’t want my books, films and television to have to fit into some sort of standard, I want them to reflect the way people actually are/were.

    • #3855
      elizlk
      Participant

      I agree that we shouldn’t “clean up” history to fit our current sensibilities. We do need to acknowledge what it is/was and why what may have been accepted as normal then is not now. There are so many places where that context is lost, or misused, though – thinking of the ways the Bible is & has been used to justify abhorrent behavior, for example, from slavery to the subjugation of women. (Did I mention that my favorite line from book/show is when Claire tells the Highlanders exactly what she thinks of St Paul? 😉

      Anyway, on a different note, I saw this post today about consent and the new rules for California state campuses. It makes some great points about the “consent” issue with respect to sex, but also points out the toll that is borne by society. Interesting read, I thought.
      http://www.vox.com/2014/10/10/6952227/rape-culture-is-a-tax-on-women-CA-yes-means-yes-dierks-katz

    • #3863
      filmfixation
      Participant

      oh I entirely agree with that. Thats why I continue to read and love and celebrate the books despite the fact that such scenes exist! Even though that sequence challenges me, I think its a great thing-a refreshing thing to love a book and also to feel the need to question it and struggle alongside it. So often I only engage with work that has the patent “feminist approved” sticker on it. You miss out on conversations like this if you dont look beyond that narrow field.

      I get a bit annoyed when fellow feminists refuse to engage with a film, book or piece of art simply because it may or may not depict something awful (rape, abuse, general misogyny) especially when it is doing something more complicated than just doing the whole “boob furniture” thing. If it IS doing something harmful, we should see it so we can expose it for what it is and undermine its power. If its making a more complex statement or as is the case with Outlander, depicting a time and place with the good the bad and ugly, then it shouldn’t be discounted.

    • #3866
      rachely
      Participant

      I had something totally brilliant to say. Then I lost it. So let’s just leave it at: ORGASMS because I think it had something to do with Orange is the New Black. 😛

      Perhaps it will come back to me. (Pun very much intended)

  • #3854
    Terry Dresbach
    Keymaster

    [quote quote=3629]Barb;

    Wow, what a great article. I had missed seeing it. My grandmother graduated from the University of Chicago with a degree in Latin and Greek at the beginning of WWII. She taught high school until she married my grandfather, an organic chemist who helped developed synthetic rubber. My mother was born in 1920, the year women got the vote in this country. My grandmother divorced my grandfather in 1930 for having an affair, and worked through the depression, raising two children with very little help from my grandfather. My mother was a feminist her whole life, as well as working for world peace and for civil rights. I was in the women’s liberation movement in college (we were called women’s libbers as a sort of smear, and nobody seemed to know what a feminist was). One of the biggest things we were pushing for was a model daycare center for the University campus. It was a bad idea, we were told, because it would encourage more women to work outside the home. And a day care center could never be as good for a child as being home with their mother. (I have a lot to say about that!) We never did get a day care center; this was in the early 70’s. It was years later that a day care center was finally started, but not the model we had hoped for, with interns and professionals working out how to make it work best for all involved.
    And Psychologists were still arguing about whether a woman could be considered a mature woman if she only had clitoral orgasms rather than vaginal orgasms. When the big push to pass the Equal Rights Amendment was going on, one of the main spokespersons against it was a woman named Phyllis Schlafley. (SP?) She was a lawyer, which would not have been allowed except for all the work of generations of feminists! And her main argument seemed to be that if the Equal Rights Amendment passed, your little girls would have to go into bathrooms with big dangerous men. Which is scary, if it had been true. I still don’t understand, after all these years, just why so many people (men and women) hate the idea that women are equal and ought to have the same right to run their own life that men do. I am not and have never been a woman who thinks there are no differences between the sexes. (And precious few white men can jump (joke).) But those differences have been used to hold women back from the many ways we might choose to live, without even being able to test the arbitrary boundaries set for us. I do not hold men in general responsible for this. I do think it’s harder for men to understand women’s issues, but it is our society (and some men and some women) who have done their best to keep women in old roles. I still don’t get it.
    [/quote]
    Mom?? 😉

  • #3856
    Terry Dresbach
    Keymaster

    [quote quote=3805]I work in insurance which is a totally white male dominated industry. Same experience and attitudes.[/quote]
    The film business is horrible. Absolutely horrible. For such a “liberal” culture the gender inequalities are staggering. It is a very difficult business for someone like me, the daughter of a feminist union organizer to tolerate. So I don’t. It is a daily struggle, sometimes quiet, and sometimes not between me and “the business”, as I push back and demand that things be done differently. Pretty exhausting, when you already have such insane conditions, and a lot of those conditions directly exist because the costume department is a department of women and gay men, so you are screwed over before you start. And it is twice as difficult because you not only fight against the culture at the top, but the culture at the bottom.
    Everyone in this business lives in terror of getting fired if they speak up, and women/gay men, obviously have been culturally indoctrinated to accept less than their straight male counterparts. Getting them to stand up and push back is almost impossible.
    So I am just a “pushy bitch”.

    • #3864
      filmfixation
      Participant

      as a young woman just starting out in the industry I wish I could start a forum on just this. I think it is so important for young women in the industry to have older-female mentors. The only problem is, many women I have encountered so so busy fighting the fight that its hard to make the space to mentor someone else! Something i totally get. Im starting out in the doc world, which is a different beast. I do want to get into narrative filmmaking though…ugh, glad you have you in my life in this way Terry. I just fucking love visual storytelling…i cant shake the need to be a part of it, even in the face of the “shit”.

  • #3857
    elizlk
    Participant

    [quote quote=3856]

    The film business is horrible. Absolutely horrible. For such a “liberal” culture the gender inequalities are staggering. It is a very difficult business for someone like me, the daughter of a feminist union organizer to tolerate. So I don’t. It is a daily struggle, sometimes quiet, and sometimes not between me and “the business”, as I push back and demand that things be done differently. Pretty exhausting, when you already have such insane conditions, and a lot of those conditions directly exist because the costume department is a department of women and gay men, so you are screwed over before you start. And it is twice as difficult because you not only fight against the culture at the top, but the culture at the bottom.
    Everyone in this business lives in terror of getting fired if they speak up, and women/gay men, obviously have been culturally indoctrinated to accept less than their straight male counterparts. Getting them to stand up and push back is almost impossible.
    So I am just a “pushy bitch”.
    [/quote]

    Project manager, organization leader & woman in tech & finance …. should we organize a #pushybitches union? Je suis pret!

    • #3871
      GraceBWell
      Participant

      Love it! I am ready for a *pushybitches union!!

  • #3859
    elizlk
    Participant

    [quote quote=3858]Hope and Mosleslie and GraceB;

    I have been thinking of our attitudes to rape and how we as a society still very much have the blame the victim attitude, to the extent that most women still struggle with it or succumb to it themselves, even though intellectually they know such an attitude is wrong. I’ve been trying to think why that is.

    The reality is that we live in a society where rape is pervasive and any one of us can be a victim at any time. Age, marital status, social status etc, DO NOT MATTER. That is an extremely scary thought and it brings with a feeling of helplessness. In order to combat that feeling we look away, because one wants to look into the face of an oncoming train that they believe they cannot avoid; we’d rather pretend it isn’t happening and hope it veers off at the last second.

    We also unconsciously look for reasons why it cannot happen to “me” personally and I think maybe that is where the blaming of the victim comes in. “I wouldn’t have worn such a short skirt”, “I wouldn’t have been in that place at that time”, “I wouldn’t have had that drink” blah blah blah. It is comforting to think that the victim did have some control even though it seems a perverse way of thinking, because that gives us control. If I personally do all the right things, it can’t happen to me. It’s a coping mechanism in a situation where we feel we are essentially powerless and the perceived choices are to live in fear, pretend that the problem doesn’t exist, or find a way to control it as it pertains to our own self.

    Of course the other and better choice is to not accept that rape is inevitable and somehow acceptable. The first part of that is to force ourselves and our society to look it square in the face and shine the light on the reality of it. We need to call out the media that digs up the dirt on the victim while ignoring the perpetrator’s responsibility. We need to call out the entertainment shows that use rape as a lazy plot device without showing the true ugliness of it (GoT are you listening?). We need to encourage entertainment that honestly shows the reality of rape as much as is possible. I’ve read comments from Outlander fans hoping that the show will not actually show Jamie’s experience in Wentworth because they don’t think they can bear seeing it. I believe that is exactly the wrong thing to do. Bandaging up a festering wound because you don’t want to look at it only allows it to continue to fester and eventually poison the entire body. You have to look at it square on and do what is needed to clean it out and let it heal. That can take courage which some may not have (maybe for good reasons based on their past experience). We need to understand those who can’t look and not condemn them, but those of us who can must look head on into the evil and refuse to let it continue to hide away in the dark in whatever small way we can. (I personally am not looking forward to Wentworth but I will watch because in my mind not doing so denies an essential truth in the story of Jamie and Claire.)

    We need to support and assist victims and their families and we need to make rape of anyone – female, male, adult or child completely unacceptable. We can work to change the laws, but laws follow the beliefs of a society not vice versa. If we can change the belief system surrounding rape the laws will change to confirm to our beliefs.

    Finally we need to support and care for each other and continue talking and listening and creating safe spaces for those who are in need of them, which is probably all of us at one time or another.

    Thanks to all who have made this into one of those safe spaces. Maybe what we do here will be like a small stone thrown into a pond and will ripple out into the larger fandom and from there continue onward.
    [/quote]

    Very well said, thank you! [gold star/like button]

  • #3860
    barbc624
    Participant

    [quote quote=3856]

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>barbc624 wrote:</div>
    I work in insurance which is a totally white male dominated industry. Same experience and attitudes.

    The film business is horrible. Absolutely horrible. For such a “liberal” culture the gender inequalities are staggering. It is a very difficult business for someone like me, the daughter of a feminist union organizer to tolerate. So I don’t. It is a daily struggle, sometimes quiet, and sometimes not between me and “the business”, as I push back and demand that things be done differently. Pretty exhausting, when you already have such insane conditions, and a lot of those conditions directly exist because the costume department is a department of women and gay men, so you are screwed over before you start. And it is twice as difficult because you not only fight against the culture at the top, but the culture at the bottom.
    Everyone in this business lives in terror of getting fired if they speak up, and women/gay men, obviously have been culturally indoctrinated to accept less than their straight male counterparts. Getting them to stand up and push back is almost impossible.
    So I am just a “pushy bitch”.
    [/quote]

    My daughter is in the film business and I have heard the stories from her. More than once I have said to her “that can’t be true” or “that sounds like a soap opera” and she has assured me that it is a true story. She worked freelance for about 7 years on the production side on movies, tv shows, and lastly for a small development company, but when the company closed down last year she decided it was time to quit. She moved home and has spent the last year finishing up her screen writing certificate at UCLA, filming some shorts, and working on several screen plays with the ultimate goal of producing and directing one of them.

    She has always refused to go to work full time for one of the studios for the very reasons you speak of, choosing instead to do it on her own with the support of her friends and colleagues in the business (both male and female) and of her family. Sometimes it makes me sad to see her struggles as compared to some of her male friends from high school and college days who started where she did but have had a much easier time of it in progressing due to their gender. But then I think of how strong and determined she is and smile to myself. The men have no idea of who is coming at them! She is also a pushy bitch and I am so proud of her being so – she takes after a long line of strong women in our family and represents them well. 🙂

  • #3861
    barbc624
    Participant

    [quote quote=3857]

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Terry Dresbach wrote:</div>

    So I am just a “pushy bitch”.

    Project manager, organization leader & woman in tech & finance …. should we organize a #pushybitches union? Je suis pret!
    [/quote]

    EK – Je suis pret!

    • #3892
      rachely
      Participant

      I’ve been trapped on the couch all day cuddling with a sick 5 year old. Was embroidering my pockets and decided I would stitch some words on my garters for a change of pace.

      For all of you

      (yes, they’re upside down, couldn’t take the pic otherwise 🙂

    • #3894
      laplane
      Participant

      very creative, rachel! hope your 5-year-old feels better.

    • #3900
      barbc624
      Participant

      Love them!!

    • #3904
      rachely
      Participant

      Oh! I forgot to include my favorite quote from all of Outlander:

      “I sat down next to Jenny and admired the tiny garment she was embroidering with nearly invisible stitches.”

      In my experience, invisible stitches mak